Author Topic: Mixing epoxy and adding fillers  (Read 4972 times)

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Todd j

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Mixing epoxy and adding fillers
« on: January 29, 2019, 09:48:06 PM »
When mixing the 80/20 flour/cab o sil mix.
I may have that backwards, but anyway,  is as simple as measuring the required quantity of each and adding until the proper consistency?  Sounds simple enough. 

Also wondering why folks just don’t weigh out resin and hardener by scale into Container.  Is this a not good way to go?

Brian.Dixon

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Re: Mixing epoxy and adding fillers
« Reply #1 on: January 30, 2019, 04:10:25 AM »

Yes ... It's 80% wood flour and 20% colloidal silica (cab-o-sil etc).  I find it slightly easier to mix the silica in first, then add wood flour until the consistency is right.  Note that it is not an exact science.  20% silica is approximate - the primary goal is to make the mix non-sagging (wood flour alone makes a mixture that sags), and the secondary goal is to produce a smoother mix.  Note that if you are mixing epoxy for a high-strength joint, ex) transom corner seams, you will be using milled glass fiber as well.  In that case, I add a good dose of milled glass fiber to the epoxy by itself, then the silica, then the wood flour.  Everything just seems to mix in easier in that order, and again, add wood flour until the thickness of your mixture is as you need.

As for weighing versus volume measurements for epoxy, volume is faster and close enough.  I believe I described the "two cup" method in the construction manual, right?  I'll have to check.  The most important thing however, assuming you are using a no-volatiles non-shrinking marine epoxy, is to pick an epoxy with a low ratio such as 2:1 (resin to hardener) or 1:1.  These are very forgiving of small errors in measurement.  The high ratio epoxies (7:1, 5:1) require more careful measurement ... it's easier and faster to use a lower ratio epoxy.

Brian

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Todd j

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Re: Mixing epoxy and adding fillers
« Reply #2 on: January 30, 2019, 06:44:42 AM »
I bought ebond.  Got 5 gallons each of 30 and 60 minute hardeners. I remember reading the 2 cup method on the forums,  not sure I recall it in the plans, but something is likely there. 

are suggesting NOT to premix the 80 20 and add?   Sounds like you suggest simply adding the correct-ish components one at a time for easier mixing.

Those fillers feel extra life and fluffy and perfect for causing lung problems if inhaled.  I will definitely wear a mask when using that stuff.

Todd j

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Re: Mixing epoxy and adding fillers
« Reply #3 on: January 30, 2019, 06:46:04 AM »
I think I didn’t order the milled glass fibers.  This not the same as micro balloons right?

davidnolan

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Re: Mixing epoxy and adding fillers
« Reply #4 on: January 30, 2019, 07:04:08 AM »
I mix by weight and in my opinion its faster and easier than a pump.   Just a cheap harbor freight gram scale

I pour from gallon milk jugs for best control and I can pour 23 grams   38 grams  etc... fast and easy and cheap

I once paid 275 for a sticky stuff pump which ultimately gunked up

I think most guys once they get the hang of it mix up thickeners like wood flour and cabosil by eye

Brian.Dixon

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Re: Mixing epoxy and adding fillers
« Reply #5 on: January 30, 2019, 09:35:03 AM »
I bought ebond.  Got 5 gallons each of 30 and 60 minute hardeners. I remember reading the 2 cup method on the forums,  not sure I recall it in the plans, but something is likely there. 

are suggesting NOT to premix the 80 20 and add?   Sounds like you suggest simply adding the correct-ish components one at a time for easier mixing.

Those fillers feel extra life and fluffy and perfect for causing lung problems if inhaled.  I will definitely wear a mask when using that stuff.

No ... I don't premix fillers.  Never thought of it.  I just go by eye like Dave said and ... close is close enough ... or even not close is close enough!  If your mixture sags, add more silica.  You can scoop some thickened epoxy with the stirring stick, hold sideways and jiggle it a bit to judge...

bd

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Brian.Dixon

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Re: Mixing epoxy and adding fillers
« Reply #6 on: January 30, 2019, 09:58:35 AM »
I think I didn’t order the milled glass fibers.  This not the same as micro balloons right?

No, not the same.  There are three types of fillers for epoxy - thickeners, strengtheners, and fairing compounds.  They all have different properties and are used for different reasons.  Here's a run-down on what's what:

Thickeners (wood flour, colloidal silica / cab-o-sil) create a higher density cured product that's good for fillets and general gap-filling or gluing purposes.  Examples:  Most fillet for seams that have glass over them will use the 80% wood flour / 20% silica mix since it's higher density, fillets smoothly, and doesn't sag ... noting that wood flour thickens, but will sag while curing (like putting pudding on the wall), and silica thickens and does not sag (like toothpaste .... soft but doesn't sag).  Adding silica to wood flour while thickening epoxy makes a thickened epoxy that's cheaper to make, e.g. versus using all silica.  The wood/silica blend sands a little easier too, while silica cure to stone-like hardness.  Sometimes only little thickener is used if you want the mixture to flow.  An example of this is the use of silica alone to create a slurry-type mixture used for laminating layers of plywood together (you want the broad flat surface between 2 layers of plywood to be glued well everywhere - good coverage) or for gluing up things like scarfs so that the mixture is both gap-filling and flows well enough to fill the joint.

Strengtheners (milled glass fibers, ground glass fibers, linen fibers etc) are used in addition to the thickeners above.  They create a mix that is harder to crack .. the fibers 'tie' the epoxy together sort of like epoxied fiberglass.  Strengtheners are used for keel, bow, and transom corners because these area experience more flex and stress (corners are stress concentrators) than other seams.  Some people will use a softer, more slurry-type, mixture with strengthening fillers in it for gluing up scarfs but if the scarf joint has fiberglass on one side or the other or both, then this isn't necessary - but never hurts.

Fairing Compounds (microspheres (glass), microballoons (phenolic), plastic fibers etc) are designed to be lightweight and easy to sand.  Generally, these are mixed (alone) into epoxy just enough to make a soft paste or creamy-textured mix for filling surface defects or to smoothly hide the edges of fiberglass etcetera.  Once cured, you can sand or long-board (sand) to a fine finish prior to adding a final coat of epoxy and then painting the boat.  An exception to this is the phenolic microballoons - microballoons create a mixture that easily sags and must be mixed together with just enough silica to make it non-sagging.  Too much silica will make it hard to sand.  Phenolic microballoons (dark purple) are microscopic 'balloons' or hollow spheres of phenolic.  Glass microspheres (white) are microscopic 'balloons' as well, but made of glass instead of phenolic.  Plastic fibers are what they say they are, but reduce the density of the epoxy to make it easy to sand.  In general, from finest to least fine fairing compounds, they are:  Plastic minifibers (will fill fine sanding lines), glass microspheres (sands to a fine edge), and then phenolic microballoons (sands to a fairly fine edge).

An aside: If you select a high-body paint primer, then it acts as a fairing compound as well .... a thick primer can hide a thousand sins.  If you use the fairing compounds above first, then add a final coat or two of epoxy (sand with fine-grit paper after each), then use a high-body primer ... you'll get a nice looking boat :)

Mixing - I mix strengtheners in first (milled glass fiber) since they seem to mix in the easiest if you do, then I add silica by eye, then I finish with wood flour and add just enough to get the thickness right.  For the fluffy stuff like silica, I generally step outside the shop and hold the cup away from my face while I mix the silica in ... even a slight breeze will move the particles away from you - just turn so that they don't blow on you.  Once the silica is in, then I go back inside the shop to add the wood flour.  I hate wearing face masks.....

Here ... browse the product descriptions here:  http://www.fiberglasssupply.com/Product_Catalog/Fillers/fillers.html


Hope that clarifies fillers a bit....

Brian









« Last Edit: January 30, 2019, 10:06:50 AM by Brian.Dixon »
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Brian.Dixon

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Re: Mixing epoxy and adding fillers
« Reply #7 on: January 30, 2019, 10:05:36 AM »
I mix by weight and in my opinion its faster and easier than a pump.   Just a cheap harbor freight gram scale

I pour from gallon milk jugs for best control and I can pour 23 grams   38 grams  etc... fast and easy and cheap

I once paid 275 for a sticky stuff pump which ultimately gunked up

I think most guys once they get the hang of it mix up thickeners like wood flour and cabosil by eye

Maybe I should try a gram scale next time? 

I bought a Sticky Stuff Dispenser type pump too ... it crystallized, leaked, made a big mess ... it got retired in favor of the 2-cup method.

Brian
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json

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Re: Mixing epoxy and adding fillers
« Reply #8 on: January 31, 2019, 10:12:15 AM »
Boy, I am glad I didn't spring $300 for the sticky stuff pump. I have been using a 1000 gram scale that was like $15 on amazon, it works great. It is a bit slower probably than pump and go but it's only like the equivalent of stirring a couple extra times to mix. Most probably already know, but in case someone doesn't and this helps make sure to find the correct mix ratio by weight. It's different than the volume mix ratio, for instance the hardener for ebond is less dense than the resin so the mix ratio is 0.43 * resin weight (for the 2-1 1285 from ebond).
« Last Edit: January 31, 2019, 10:15:42 AM by json »

Brian.Dixon

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Re: Mixing epoxy and adding fillers
« Reply #9 on: January 31, 2019, 04:28:50 PM »
Boy, I am glad I didn't spring $300 for the sticky stuff pump. I have been using a 1000 gram scale that was like $15 on amazon, it works great. It is a bit slower probably than pump and go but it's only like the equivalent of stirring a couple extra times to mix. Most probably already know, but in case someone doesn't and this helps make sure to find the correct mix ratio by weight. It's different than the volume mix ratio, for instance the hardener for ebond is less dense than the resin so the mix ratio is 0.43 * resin weight (for the 2-1 1285 from ebond).

Good point!

bd

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Todd j

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Re: Mixing epoxy and adding fillers
« Reply #10 on: January 31, 2019, 05:23:11 PM »
Yup, weight per gallon is right on their data sheet.  I’m glad someone
Mentioned it!  I would have not caught it. Ounces of resin X .43= ounces of needed hardener.  Thanks!

Todd j

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Re: Mixing epoxy and adding fillers
« Reply #11 on: February 10, 2019, 06:19:43 PM »
The gram scale is the bomb!  Super fast and my guess is that is probably the most accurate.  I need to make a quick reference sheet and post it on the wall where I mix so I can eliminate the calculator step

kennneee

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Re: Mixing epoxy and adding fillers
« Reply #12 on: February 10, 2019, 08:06:51 PM »
Print this out. I use a gram scale and find this helpful if using a 2:1 resin.
https://s3.amazonaws.com/duckbbs/supplies/epoxy/epoxy_weight_ratio.pdf

Todd j

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Re: Mixing epoxy and adding fillers
« Reply #13 on: February 11, 2019, 06:52:35 AM »
I was going to make that chart.  This is awesome thanks

json

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Re: Mixing epoxy and adding fillers
« Reply #14 on: February 11, 2019, 08:40:04 AM »
I am not sure if you have an iPhone or not, but I typically just ask Siri - "what's 243.5 times 0.43?", keeps my hands free. I do have to remember to have my phone out on the epoxy station though so I don't have to dig around in my pocket for it with resin covered gloves, but I usually take it out to put some tunes on anyways.