Glacier Boats of Alaska - Builder's Forums
Great Alaskan and Boat Building => Projects - Glacier Boats of Alaska boat projects => Topic started by: Dan Boccia on February 01, 2018, 10:03:37 PM
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In late November, after considerable research and examining my desires, I decided on building a GA 28 Newport. Lacking shop space and not wanting to sink money into renting space in Anchorage and spending a year or so building the boat, plus having just sold a vacant property and thus having enough funds to cover the labor, I decided to have Anthony Lyndacker of Kachemak Skiffs build the boat. In early December, Anthony and I bantered back and forth about materials. On Dec 9 he ordered materials and they were in his shop on the 19th, when he began building the scarf jig for this build. So start of the build is officially December 19. He took a 2-week break over the holidays. Today it's February 1 and he basically has the entire hull built.
My goal for this build is to go as light as possible - I'm very comfortable with the strength of the design and see no need to overbuild. In addition, since Anthony has built and repaired a bunch of Tolmans, he will be better able than many to minimize materials while still keeping the build plenty strong. Here is the status today.
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=frjP4kgaYQI&feature=youtu.be (https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=frjP4kgaYQI&feature=youtu.be)
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Great overview by Anthony of Kachemak Skiffs! In case you don't know, Anthony Lyndaker will put together a kit for you OR will build the boat for you, working with you to finish the boat to whatever level you prefer, e.g. just build the hull, or hull and decks, or go all the way and build the cabin/cuddy and finish it up for you. Love the video... !!
Brian
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Anthony has faired and sanded the bare hull twice. Note the minimal fairing compound, testament to careful and skillful carpentry, and key to keeping weight down. Next step is to glass the hull.
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Looking Sweet! What kind of wood is he using? Looks like good smooth wood ... that helps a lot with the fairing too, plus of course, Anthony knows how to fast and good work at the same time. It's going to be a nice boat :)
Brian
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I decided on okoume for its light weight, which is a primary design criteria for this build. Any argument about strength seems far less important as most of the strength comes from the shape and the glass and the design details, all of which I'm very comfortable with. I'm looking forward to weighing this boat when it's fully outfitted!
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I decided on okoume for its light weight, which is a primary design criteria for this build. Any argument about strength seems far less important as most of the strength comes from the shape and the glass and the design details, all of which I'm very comfortable with. I'm looking forward to weighing this boat when it's fully outfitted!
Yes, I love Okoume! It makes finishing easy too since it is so smooth - the extra cost, compared to fir, is worth in when you consider the time savings in maintenance and the value of a nice looking boat.
As for those curves that Anthony mentions, they were originally drawn on paper with ships curves - Ships curves were developed over time as being curves that work well with water:
https://www.amazon.com/Westcott-Ship-Curve-Set-SC-66/dp/B000HEOHVC?SubscriptionId=AKIAILSHYYTFIVPWUY6Q&tag=duckduckgo-d-20&linkCode=xm2&camp=2025&creative=165953&creativeASIN=B000HEOHVC
Just a little trivia I guess...
Brian
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Entire outside of hull is now glassed, sides have been faired/sanded twice, bottom faired once. One layer of Kevlar installed on transom engine mount area for extra toughness. Just saw the boat in person for the first time today (have been out of town since the build started) and found out this is Anthony's 17th boat build! Of interest he mixes all his epoxy by hand having found the big metering pumps too fussy to keep clean, spreads his epoxy with the small yellow squeegees for the most part, and obviously he has a system and moves steadily.
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I gave up on pumps too. What I do instead is the 'cup in a cup' method:
- Drop one (typ. SOLO brand) plastic cup into another, and look through the side of the cups, eyeballing how much hardener you want inside the inside cup - make a Sharpie line at that level and put an 'H' (hardener) next to it.
- Pour water into the inside cup - carefully to the line that you made. Dump this water into another plastic cup. Do this again so that the other plastic cup has twice the water in it than the 'hardener' cup.
- Put a new plastic up inside the marked up, fill to the 'H' mark, then pour the contents of the other cup (the one with a double charge of water in it) into it ... Now make a mark at the water level and label it 'H+R' (1 measure of hardener, 2 measures of resin).
To mix a batch of epoxy, drop a clean cup into the marked cup, pour hardener into it up to the 'H' line, then add resin until it's full to the 'H+R' line. You now have a 2:1 resin/hardener ratio in your clean cup. Stir it up and use it. The marked cup is ready for another batch ... never mucked up with epoxy and ready to be re-used. I actually built a little stand for my bench top so that the cups would be pretty close to eye-level as I poured hardener/resin into the clean (inner) cup.
The above is NOT my invention or trick ... but I don't remember where I first saw it either :) :(
Brian
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I use a method relayed to me by Oyster on the Fishy Fish forum. He does a lot of boat work and as such has some pretty good tips when it comes to epoxy.
I use the large yogurt containers and initially, I mark one them on the outside with a black felt pen. I fill first with water using a measuring cup to the two part level and mark. The amount of epoxy you feel comfortable using determines how much of each, the faster I got at applying it, the larger the mix. Then I add the one part level and mark by adding the appropriate amount of water. Once this is done, I cut a bunch of lath into six or eight in pieces. I have lots of hardwood scrap that I used for this purpose, cut about an eighth of an inch thick and about 3/4 wide. I stick one into the cup less the water and make a mark at both levels using a black felt pen.
Next I use the initial measure stick and a tri-square to transfer that mark onto five or six other measure sticks at a time. I make up around twenty or more at a time.
I use laundry detergent jugs for both my resin and for my hardener marked appropriately. Place one of the measure sticks in the yogurt container, dump in the resin to the first mark, then dump in the hardener to the second mark on the measure stick. Fast, efficient and accurate. If you wipe of the measure stick in between uses, you can use them over and over again.
The yogurt containers work great, and you can use them over and over until they finally crack. By slightly crushing the container the next day, you dislodge the set up epoxy and can easily pull it from the container.
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I like the measuring sticks solution - It lets you re-use any container you want, even if it is not clear. Thanks Kent....
Brian
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Anthony finished the hull and got the graphite with barrier coat on the bottom late last week. We flipped Saturday, then took measurements for fuel tanks and bulkhead layout, and other details for the floor system. There's a little more room that I realized so along with the aft cuddy bulkhead at 118", we stretched the aft cabin bulkhead to 226" for a full 9-ft cabin, still leaving about 7 1/2-ft of open deck between the cabin and drywell. The extra space in the cabin will be welcome plenty of times I'm sure. I like that there is a bit less dory flair than in a Tolman, so there's quite a bit more floor width on the back deck to work with. We're planning on 14" gunwales with storage lockers for skis and other long gear along the sides. Anthony is building a 24-ft jumbo right next to mine so it's fun to compare.
With final measurements, I drew up the two fuel tanks and it looks like I'll have about 115 gallons nominal, so I figure I'll get around 95-100 gallons of useful fuel storage, good enough for a 300-350 mile range...perfect for Seward to Homer with plenty of poking around on the way. We're going to build a large part of the cuddy, cabin, and cabinets with foam-core and we're sticking pretty close to Brian's glass schedule without feeling any need to overbuild, so this should be a relatively light boat, which is a primary goal. I want to be able to pull it with my 4.7L V8 2004 4Runner, and I want the best fuel efficiency I can get on the water. Lots of talk about how fast the boat will go, but my primary interest is how fuel efficient it will be going around 25 knots plus or minus a bit.
We're planning to raise the back deck 3" above the top of the stringers, leaving just enough room for scupper tubes out the back. I have seen a few recommendations to raise the floor 4", but this means the scupper tubes will really bit into the transom/engine mount support which we don't like. I'm also curious what diameter people are using for scuppers? Anthony was recommending 1" but seems to me like they should be 2". He likes to plug them most of the time, I'm tempted to keep them open. Suggestions?
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Looks awesome! The graphite really went on well! Did you have an "OMG!" moment when you saw how big the boat was when it was upright?
Scuppers: 1" too small ... I prefer 3" test-plugs (pipe testing), but use the biggest that'll fit and is 3-1/2" diameter or smaller. Maybe I'll crack open the CAD model and see what I think will fit.... we'll see.
Brian
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I just realized that Anthony still has to install the lower motor mount LVL, the double 3/4 plywood stiffener below that, and the upper 3/4" plywood stiffeners. With all this in place, if we raise the deck 3", it's not that big of a deal if, say, a 3" scupper tube hole bites into the upper LVL motor mount, is it?
To that end, any feedback from others who have built to 28-ft on whether they would/would not raise the back deck and if so how much? I know Dave in Homer raised his 2 1/2" on his 26-ft, and wishes he had raised it 4" because with 2 guys in one corner on a fish water comes in the scuppers. I figured I'd raise mine 3" and the fact that my build is a bit longer and I only weigh 175, it will probably be good.
Love to hear from any others reading along......
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I just realized that Anthony still has to install the lower motor mount LVL, the double 3/4 plywood stiffener below that, and the upper 3/4" plywood stiffeners. With all this in place, if we raise the deck 3", it's not that big of a deal if, say, a 3" scupper tube hole bites into the upper LVL motor mount, is it?
To that end, any feedback from others who have built to 28-ft on whether they would/would not raise the back deck and if so how much? I know Dave in Homer raised his 2 1/2" on his 26-ft, and wishes he had raised it 4" because with 2 guys in one corner on a fish water comes in the scuppers. I figured I'd raise mine 3" and the fact that my build is a bit longer and I only weigh 175, it will probably be good.
Love to hear from any others reading along......
If you look at Sheet 021a (Drywell), you'll see that there is room for raising your deck as high as you want and still have 3" scuppers. Get those pipe plugs and make some fiberglass tubes for them before you go too far here. Personally, I think a 4" lift on those decks is a little high since it reduces the interior freeboard a bit much ... I think dropping it to around 24" (I have to double check that.) I might go for a 3" raising of the deck, then put in 3" scuppers with custom fiberglass tubing (that you make) cut to fit the transom. As for biting into the upper LVL - no worries. The scuppers should be installed in the outer corners near the sides of the boat, and nearly flush with the top of the decking. At that point, the scupper holes will have NO impact on transom strength .... no problem. :)
My feelings on the "water on the deck when 2 guys...." is so? Boats in this size range cannot have decks high enough to prevent water trying to come back into the scuppers. The reason for scuppers is to let water out fast when you've taken on water (big wave + too many people in the stern). As for the water getting back in goes, I would suggest just accepting that as-is and do what Anthony says - leave the plugs in until you need them. Water collecting in the back of the boat from fishing and rain? Pull the plugs when underway and put them back when you stop at the next fishing hole. OR ... use scupper stoppers that mount outside the boat that use flappers or a ball-type check valve gizmo ... these are not perfect, but they do help. Ideally, you'd have scuppers 10 to 12 inches above the waterline, but these boats just aren't big enough to allow that ... If you're not wet, you're not boating! ;D
Just my 2-bits....
Brian
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Perfect Brian, thanks. I'm on board with all of what you said. Anthony and I got the transom, deck, and scuppers ironed out on the phone earlier today so he's off and running working on glassing the stringers and all the rest of the bilge work while I'm working with a local fab shop on the fuel tanks.
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Perfect Brian, thanks. I'm on board with all of what you said. Anthony and I got the transom, deck, and scuppers ironed out on the phone earlier today so he's off and running working on glassing the stringers and all the rest of the bilge work while I'm working with a local fab shop on the fuel tanks.
It's going to be a nice boat! And progress is fast ... Anthony is one of those that can build quickly AND quality at the same time. Rare qualities...
Brian
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And Anthony is building a 24-ft Jumbo and also working on a Tolman Standard while working on mine!
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And Anthony is building a 24-ft Jumbo and also working on a Tolman Standard while working on mine!
He da Man!!
bd
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Boat design central lately while we await fuel tanks and Anthony wraps up the guts in the belly of the boat. Wet gear locker aft and a fairly typical port side arrangement. Spent a lot of time in other boats verifying measurements. A few dimensions might tweak but we're getting close.
Anthony and I felt the 51" dimension from bow to aft anchor-well bulkhead was a hair long and pushes the cuddy hatch a bit close to the windshield, so we plan to shorten it just a hair to 48". Other than that, Brian's dimensions are holding up to intense scrutiny fairly nicely!
Significant visible progress is right around the corner.
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Looking good, but I have a question or two on the transom?
I only see one (of two) of the LVL motor boards? Is the lower motor board (LVL) installed? How about below the bottom motor board ... should be 2" thick. Is the lowest plywood doubler in place?
The motor cut-out looks awfully deep ... The bottom of the cut-out should be about 18" below the sheerline if using an XL shaft motor. How deep is your cut-out?
Thx, If something's amiss, this is the time to remedy it.
Brian
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Happy to have your questions: The transom looks funky from this view, 28-ft away. Anthony has been having trouble with voids in LVL lately, so this transom from the engine cutout down is 4 layers of plywood laminated with glass and biax between each layer. It's a full 2" thick, and bombproof. The cutout is for an engine with a 25" shaft, as measured from the bottom to the engine cutout....we never measured from the gunwales down. I'll be back in his shop in 2 weeks and will double-check all of this - all our work is up front now so still plenty of time to re-visit the transom if necessary.
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Happy to have your questions: The transom looks funky from this view, 28-ft away. Anthony has been having trouble with voids in LVL lately, so this transom from the engine cutout down is 4 layers of plywood laminated with glass and biax between each layer. It's a full 2" thick, and bombproof. The cutout is for an engine with a 25" shaft, as measured from the bottom to the engine cutout....we never measured from the gunwales down. I'll be back in his shop in 2 weeks and will double-check all of this - all our work is up front now so still plenty of time to re-visit the transom if necessary.
4 layers of ply with biax between each? That's awesome! That should be bomb proof as you say ... and if the bottom of the cut-out is for a 25" shaft, then no worries too. Keep on truckin'....
Brian
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Here's some progress from earlier in the week. Fuel tanks came out exactly as I designed them and are sweetly fabricated - all 3/16" 5052 aluminum. Total nominal volume ~ 132 gallons. Should get an honest 110 gallons of usable volume - hoping for 3.5mpg resulting in a range of over 350 miles so I can go a week to 10 days on longer remote trips and screw around a lot without worrying too much about fuel.
Raised the back deck 3" higher than the main cabin floor, giving just enough room to run the fuel lines above the main stringers and have them completely outside the cabin - zero potential for fumes in the cabin other than the wind wafting vent fumes into a window occasionally perhaps. This, too, came out exactly as I designed it - super happy with the whole works.
Cuddy is mostly built - aft cuddy bulkhead is at 118" - the longest length recommended by Brian. The cabin will be 9 1/2' long (about a foot longer than Brian recommends), still leaving 8'-3" of back deck from transom to aft cabin bulkhead, which will be cut down by about 2-ft for the splashwell and maybe 16" or so for the cabinets on either side of the splashwell. Since I'm focused on camping rather than a total fishing machine, these compromises seem reasonable. We pushed the height of the cuddy up a few inches so I have 40" from bunk top plywood to cuddy roof, so I can sit up straight in there. We also eliminated stringers in the cuddy roof - we have 1/2" of foam glassed both sides, with 1/4" okoume laminated on top. With the hatch flange, the windshields, and a curvature of about 4" in 6-ft, it will be solid. It already feels fine without the windshields and hatch framework in place.
Decided to have zero access ports in the back deck floor - just seal it up tight, no hatches to leak and fuss with. The floor of the cabin and cuddy will have removable cutouts to access storage there.
In the anchor well, we moved the bulkhead up to 48" instead of Brian's 51", to give the hatch a bit more room to swing without hitting the windshield, and create a hair more space in the cuddy. Still seems fine up in the anchor well so seems like a reasonable tweak.
Finally, getting back to Brian's concern about the transom, we measured that and it checks out perfectly - cutout is 18" below the gunwales, and height from keel to cutout is 25", exactly as our engine vendor specified, so we're all good there.
Open to ideas on what to coat the back deck, gunwales, anchor locker, and cuddy roof with. I originally wanted bedliner, but the bedliner I've seen has too many "holes" in it to trap dirt. Curious about Zolatone or other products that create a grippy texture that is still reasonable to clean.
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Dan,
You deserve a lot of accolades for the fine job you are doing together with Anthony. Everything is just awesome, and very very well thought out. I agree that everything you've done is A-OK (including the aft house bulkhead and anchor well mods / locations). Thanks for posting such detailed information on everything you are doing, especially the pictures. Who built your nice tanks? Are they baffled, or did the shop think that wasn't necessary? That's going to be one fine boat ... and it'll outlast you AND your kids :)
Brian
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Thanks Brian. A lot of the credit goes to Anthony...having built 16 Tolmans, he's got a lot of practical experience that gels nicely with my goals, and he's willing to try new things like the foam core and other "new" ideas.
Tri-jet in Palmer built the tanks - I'm a good friend of the owner. They weld double-wall fuel tanks for helicopter and other aviation pursuits, and do some large-scale military contracting involving substantial aluminum welding so they're well qualified and were very helpful and willing to work with my ideas. The tanks have two baffles each - I'm a strong advocate of the baffles. Lack of baffling was one reason I decided to stay away from the plastic tanks, not to mention that it's hard to maximize space with them.
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Wow... those are well built heavy duty tanks. I know that on some that are built with heavy walls, that they don't always put baffles in them. Your place in Palmer built them heavy AND put baffles in! Well done!
Brian
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Love those fuel tanks, Dan! They look like the ones I had fabricated here in Homer by Bay Welding. Anthony is doing his usual excellent work. Enjoyed your visit a few weeks ago.
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Thanks Dave! Yes, they are modeled after your tanks with a few tweaks to fit my scenario. Appreciated that visit and learned a lot from it, thanks! Headed to Homer Monday for ~ 3 weeks of solar installations, so might want to come by and take another snoop around your boat for ideas at some point.....or maybe you need some gas money for a fishing trip, who knows :)
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Been awhile and quite a bit of progress. Just decided on the Suzuki DF250AP fly by wire as the main engine, and the new-ish fuel injected 9.9 high-thrust kicker with Brian's help today. Feels good to have the engines figured out. I'll be around 6-7000 lb on the water and want to cruise around 25 and be able to go 35 without straining the engine, and want to cruise at low-ish RPMs to keep the engine quieter, so along with my weight, I went for the 250 to keep noise and stress down on the engine. The idea of a 200 straining most of the time to keep up did not sit well with me.
Back deck nearing completion - wide 12" gunwales with lockers below for skis and fishing poles, and the nice aft storage cabinets, with solid tops - all access from the front, with no opportunity for water to get into them from top-mounted hatches. Even with the 9 1/2' extra long cabin, 4 people will be able to fish no problem, and there's a bit of room to move around otherwise, so I'm happy with the long cabin dimension for my use. The crazy roof is over 12-ft long, so plenty of room for radar and lights up front, then solar panels, then dinghy. Things are working out nicely.
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Dan,
Cant wait for some more update pics. do you have any more pics of inside the cuddy? I am interested in how the foam attaches to the sheer decks.
Looking good!
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Pulled the boat out of Anthony's shop today and shoe-horned it into my back yard in Anchorage. Off to get the Suzuki 250 fly-by-wire and 9.9 hi-thrust engines hung tomorrow.
The big news is the boat weight. 3075 lb with fuel system (both tanks, fills/vents complete, fuel supplies coiled in bilge), deck cleats, anchor roller, bow eye, Seastar tilting helm and wheel, captain's seat with sliding base, dinette table and base, bilge and heater through-hulls, and a couple grab bars. Without all this, the bare hull weight would be 2784 lb, and that's with a 9 1/2 ft cabin full of cabinets, and quite a few cabinets on the back deck. I figure once everything is installed, dry, it will weigh between 4475 and 4625 lb. For comparison, Dave's 26-footer in Homer weighed 4700 lb dry and all outfitted. The weight savings comes from the foam-core we used in the cabin and parts of the cabinets, plus we stuck to the glass schedule without overbuilding anything except maybe the transom. I am thrilled with the weight, it's over 400 lb lighter than Anthony and I were figuring it would be.
We are not very impressed with the System Three paint - it gave Anthony quite a bit of trouble and seems a bit fragile. I would be hard pressed to recommend it to be honest. We called the company and worked with them to be sure we were using it correctly and they verified it was not a bad batch. I think I would go with Alex-Seal in the future, my research revealed lots of boat yards and individuals are happy with this paint, and you put up with the fumes.
Also, the Kokopelli trailer, while being some 700 lb lighter than the EZ-Loader option, has two things I'm disappointed with: One, the jack stand does not swivel because the I-beams are in the way, and two, the side bunks only attach to the outside I-beam, so they vibrate all over the place. I had to add some angles to the box beam to attach to the ends of the side bunk supports beneath the trailer, and that stiffened things up considerably at very little cost other than a few hours crawling around under the trailer.
After carting it around town for engine, upholstery measurements, and bow/roof rail measurements, it will be up to me to wire and outfit the boat. Looking forward to working on it myself!
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What a beauty! Congratulations!!!
You may be impressed with the S-III paint more as you own the boat longer - my experience has been that it's pretty tough, but it cures tissue-thin and shows every defect (which doesn't bother me any).
On the port side, what is the 'hole' midway down one side? Vent? Bilge pump outlet?
Brian
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Brian, that thru-hull on the port side is the Wallas forced air furnace exhaust/air intake. They are strict about having a 12" drop in the stack, and since the stack topped out just below the gunnel, this is where it ended up. They said that's common, and they've never had any problems. I can imagine side slop getting into the hole occasionally, perhaps when pulling a shrimp pot in a blow or something, but they don't seem worried about it.
Off to the engine shop...
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Brian, that thru-hull on the port side is the Wallas forced air furnace exhaust/air intake. They are strict about having a 12" drop in the stack, and since the stack topped out just below the gunnel, this is where it ended up. They said that's common, and they've never had any problems. I can imagine side slop getting into the hole occasionally, perhaps when pulling a shrimp pot in a blow or something, but they don't seem worried about it.
Off to the engine shop...
Gotcha ... I hadn't thought of that. You'll enjoy that Wallas.... warm = good :D
Brian
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Dan,
Your boat looks awesome! I just noticed you have foam on the cabin sides, bulkhead and I assume roof, You had mentioned foam on the cuddy roof with 1/4 laminated on the top but I am curious if any wood is laminated onto the sides to the roof?
I am wanting to do foam and looking for all the info I can get.
Bob
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Dan, can you give me an idea what the outboard and controls cost you?
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Sorry, missed your questions Rbob and Djeffrey...
We used 1/2" foam on the cuddy sides, forward bulkhead, cuddy top with 1/4" plywood laminated on top, cabin sides, window frames, top of aft bulkhead above the gunwales, and the roof. No extra lamination on the roof, but we did lay another layer of 10oz I think on the roof. Also used foam on almost all of the cabinet bulkheads. I love the weight savings. Costs a bit more, and is a bit more of a hassle to outfit since through bolts and washers need to be used to mount anything. In the cuddy, up high, we laminated a 2" strip of 1/2" plywood on either side so I can run screw eyes in to string up hanging lines for clothes, etc. If you think ahead, you can add bits of plywood here and there to mount things to and still get the weight savings. Also, you get some insulation value out of it, and sound deadening perhaps.
Sure, prices from Anchorage Yamaha/Suzuki:
$22,910 Suzuki DF250AP, fly by wire (electronic shift/throttle)
$3230 Suzuki DF9.9 BT, hi-thrust kicker, EFI (love that I have no carbs on board!)
$99 kicker throttle controls
$550 stainless prop for 250 - 18 x 19 (to start with, will see how it runs)
$700 computer for 250
$92 boots/rigging supplies
$1430 shop labor to hang engines, program 250, run controls, and install hydraulic steering (I supplied helm, already mounted to console)
$27,581 parts
$29,011 total
This does not include the kicker bracket I had fabricated, the Seastar tilting helm (about $700), or any of the hydraulic steering parts.
Bloody expensive, but what can you do? At least it's top shelf gear.
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Got the pair of Suzukis hung finally after the shop took 3 weeks to do it. Such is the way it seems to go with engine shops, sigh....
The control cables are not in their final position, just hanging there for now.
Two things of interest to builders and Brian:
1. The drywell, at 36" wide, was too narrow to allow mounting the hydraulic steering tube, so the shop had to tear the engine off, mount the tube, and re-mount. If the drywell was 40" wide it would have fit. Otherwise, there is barely adequate room in all other dimensions, so future builders planning on a 250 might want to increase drywell dimensions all around a couple inches.
2. There is no good way to connect the kicker to the main for steering. The 250 has no good place to strap on a tie-bar on its back end, and the offset is too great for a Seastar kicker cable or tie-bar on the front. This is a major disappointment to me. Thankfully, we have products such as the Panther T5 electro-steer, which is an electronic control with a little keypad to steer with. I'll mount the keypad in the cabin and be good to go hopefully. I have heard of someone tapping into the hydraulic steering, valving the lines to the kicker or the main, and just switching the valves to go between the two. Sounds like a cool creative solution, not sure how it would work, and the Panther product looks clean and simple so I'm going with that.
Now I can finish the heater installation, mount the fridge, lights, nav lights, electronics, and electrical. Bunch of work still to do!
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Dan,
Thanks for the very useful feedback. I'll add some notes to the construction manual and transom drawings about the steering v. fitting the narrow cut-out. The dimensions provided in the plans are ABYC minimums, which means in some cases they may not work out (as you found).
As for linking the two motors together for steering, I have seen custom-fabricated hoops around the main with a rod attached that goes over to the kicker. Not the prettiest, but still looks just fine. Transom cut-out would need to take it into consideration as well. Personally, I don't mind not having to steer against the weight of the main when steering the kicker, and I prefer the main to be out of the water when I'm using the kicker too, so not having them linked is not an issue with me ... but I do prefer having separate steering for it. Brackets on kickers are harder to steer with a tiller handle and if doing it all day, it'll get old. It's worth it to think through these things and to provide convenient steering.
Brian
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Yep, the problem here is the Suzuki 250 bottom unit housing is very tapered, so there's no good place to strap to it, and no convenient bolts to use for a bracket, either. That said, I think the Panther T5 electro steer may be a sweet solution, so I'm moving forward with that and will report how it works.
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Yep, the problem here is the Suzuki 250 bottom unit housing is very tapered, so there's no good place to strap to it, and no convenient bolts to use for a bracket, either. That said, I think the Panther T5 electro steer may be a sweet solution, so I'm moving forward with that and will report how it works.
I've never seen or tried the Panther T5 - You'll have to let us know how you like it after giving it a whirl....
Brian
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Got the heater fully installed today, along with some other bits and pieces. One glamour shot and one builder's special shot - spent a lot of time folded up inside that locker running ducts, exhaust, drilling huge holes in my boat and epoxying them, fiberglass exhaust wrap, etc. Many thanks to Scan Marine in Seattle, who I visited twice while shopping for heaters - they spent 1 1/2 hours with me when I purchased the unit, getting all the pieces assembled and recommending several things, including mounting it under the dinette, which I had not thought of and works brilliantly.
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Thanks for the update and photos. I am also liking the Wallace heater, a friend of mine has one in his Thunder jet Offshore, it is amazing you can have the doors open and be warm..
You are doing an amazing job, cant wait to see when it is all done.
Brian,
I do not get notifications but I am subscribed, maybe something you could look into, in your spare time...
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Brian,
I do not get notifications but I am subscribed, maybe something you could look into, in your spare time...
Yeah ... the forums are a busted to some degree. Tapatalk doesn't work either. It got messed up when moving from one server to another an back again, trying to get it to work in a Windows Server environment instead of Linux (I failed). At some point, I need to blow it all away and reinstall from scratch (note: "blowing it away" means the code infrastructure ... not the data/text/posts/pix etc ... the CONTENT will be preserved. It's in a database separate from the code).
Brian
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I have used the panther T5 on my jet boat for trolling. I used the wireless remote. Very handy when moving about the boat. Wireless is worth the extra $$. As for the rest of it I think I would not use it again on another boat. My problems were it did not allow the kicker to turn lock to lock. Lots of room left to go the ram was too short to allow it. It wasn’t any good in the wind at all. Too slow to make turns. It turned more one direction than the other. The place I bought it couldn’t make it turn more equally side to side. You need a threaded tilt tube to install. Dunno about your kicker. We were surprised how many did not have a threaded tilt tube.
Anyway that’s my .02. Maybe if you voice these concerns upfront you will have better lu k. It’s super easy to install.
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Why not use a separate hydraulic steering system for the kicker, say a small Baystar? Or even cable? Small steering wheel along the gunnel or on the aft house bulkhead? I've never tried doing this and haven't seen it done either ... am I missing something?
Brian
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Interesting to hear that feedback on the Panther T5, thanks!
Brian, a lot of the time using the kicker, I'm inside the cabin, moving real slow through a bay, sightseeing in the morning or just going somewhere super slow. I'd much rather be inside, and really just wanted to be right at the helm. If I put a steering wheel somewhere on the back deck, I start running out of storage space real quick to hang things, and I have to be outside. I actually don't troll much, the kicker is something I use when I'm in no rush, or as an emergency backup.
I heard of a marina back east that would install a single helm/steering wheel, and run the hydraulics to both engines. Where the line teed to go to each engine, they had valves, so you could valve over to one engine or the other. Pretty simple and intriguing....
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Interesting to hear that feedback on the Panther T5, thanks!
Brian, a lot of the time using the kicker, I'm inside the cabin, moving real slow through a bay, sightseeing in the morning or just going somewhere super slow. I'd much rather be inside, and really just wanted to be right at the helm. If I put a steering wheel somewhere on the back deck, I start running out of storage space real quick to hang things, and I have to be outside. I actually don't troll much, the kicker is something I use when I'm in no rush, or as an emergency backup.
I heard of a marina back east that would install a single helm/steering wheel, and run the hydraulics to both engines. Where the line teed to go to each engine, they had valves, so you could valve over to one engine or the other. Pretty simple and intriguing....
Hmmmm.... First thoughts: OK, why not a little 6" wheel inside the house for the kicker by itself? It would perhaps fit on top of the helm or ? And ... T'ing off the hydraulics to steer two motors of very different size, I have to wonder about hydraulic rates versus 2 different sized hydraulic rams that have different ranges of motion. Perhaps the shop that you mention is the expert on this and can dial it all in ... it would be GREAT to be able to trim the main up out of the water and just use the kicker and single steering wheel for both. Need is the mother of invention....
Brian
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A bit of progress to report: First of all, I installed the Panther T5 kicker steering and although it takes some fiddling and bending of the drive arm, it seems to function nicely. I'm not very impressed with the wiring connections - they are pretty flaky for a system that is supposedly designed for salt water use. We'll see how the wiring holds up but it does functionally move the engine back and forth as advertised.
The boat is at the upholstery shop now, and I'm happy to show the reversible seat back I came up - this is one of those things that I was surprised I could not find hardware or a refined design for, and I came up with all kinds of schemes before a friend helped me come up with this one. First of all, the seat back is a piece of 3/8" AC plywood with a 3/16" channel routed into it for each seat stay. I then laminated scrap 1/4" maple plywood left over from a cabinet project. There are no fasteners - it fits tight enough to not move around and loose enough to take apart easily. The seat stays go through the slots in the seat cabinet, and I made up maple retainer blocks that fit inside the cabinet to receive the stays. I'm pretty sure it will be too flexible, so I'll have a spine welded onto the stays to take the flex out of them. Finally, I'll powder coat them black so they don't stain the fabric and cabinet. No fasteners anywhere, no pieces to lose during use, and very space-efficient.
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Dan,
Looking good as always, I like the seat design, sitting forward for travel and facing aft to watch the fishing poles. /cant wait to see more.
Bob
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Dan,
Looking good as always, I like the seat design, sitting forward for travel and facing aft to watch the fishing poles. /cant wait to see more.
Bob
Those seat backs, with a little spring in them, will be comfortable too. I like how you can slide all components apart and then stow the seats in a cupboard or deep drawer ... out of the way, especially when lowering the dinette table to convert the seats into a bunk.
bd
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Upholstery all complete, including the seat back posted about previously. Very happy with this! Anyone in Southcentral Alaska should consider Fine Line in Anchorage for their upholstery - fantastic outfit to work with. The cuddy bunks are over 7'6" long, and 7'9" wide at 12" forward of the aft cuddy bulkhead. Dinette "bunk" is 5'9" as is, and will be 6'9" when I get the bracket in place to hold the seat back flat to extend the forward portion of the bunk. Finally, had the seat back stays powder-coated satin black for the final touch.
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Wow! The seats and upholstery turned out great! What do you think of the bigger-than-queen-size bed you've got up front? Pretty roomy, eh? You can definitely live aboard for good long trips in your boat ... warm, dry, room to sit and sleep in comfort. You're going to be addicted to this boat pretty fast....
Brian
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Wow, the level of craftsmanship and imagination used in these builds is awesome!
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A bit of progress to report. Stainless bow and roof rails installed. Fabricated by Dave at Heavy Weather Boats in Anchorage - fabulous guy to work with, very knowledgeable. Little seemingly trivial details like a door stop were made complicated by choosing to mount the deck lights below the roof (I will be slinging my dinghy up onto/off of the roof from the aft end, so want the roof clear in this area), so normal door stop hardware would not work and I am pretty sure I like this better anyway. Couple pictures of the cabinetry on the back deck - side cabinets under the gunwales are ski lockers (!!)....yep, in the spring I plan to be doing a lot of skiing while soaking shrimp pots and finding a place to put wet, bulky skis was a high-priority design criteria. Aft SB cabinet has master negative buss, water separator....and I'm contemplating punching a hole in this otherwise unused space to mount my pot-pulling davit out of the way. Tussling over whether to do the big electrodyne or a smaller my-t-puller. Aft port cabinet has 2.5-gal diesel tank for heater on bottom, with start battery and bilge switch on top. Aft center cabinet is access to bilge and bilge plug, main combiner battery switch (dual circuit plus), and battery-to battery charge controller to smart-charge the house battery. I'm using AGM batteries, which are finicky about charge voltages (especially on float portion of charge) if you want them to last a long time and perform well. Installing wiper motors and wipers surprised me as a pretty fussy project. Of course there was not enough room above or below the windows to mount the motors directly, so I had to put a 1" spacer block so the motor would clear the window frame. For builders still in-process, plan to add such a block above each window while you're glassing, would be way easier than after-the-fact. Finally, to protect the stem from the trailer roller, etc. I installed a strip of keel-guard, which is a thick rubber that can take a lot of abuse. Hope these details help some of the folks starting their projects!
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Thanks for the pics Dan. Have you had your boat on the water? Wanted you to know that when I tell people I’m building a boat I show them a pic of yours. Love what your doing. I too am going to use my boat primarily for camping, along with fishing and what not. I have watch your build and appreciate any and all pics you have.
Dennis
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Hi Dennis - no I have not gotten it wet yet. Probably May since I'll be out of state for most of April. It helps to have pictures of the various details so I'm trying to give back a little by posting some occasionally to help folks out. Good luck!
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It comes as no surprise to see the innovation, quality workmanship, and detailed well-thought out layout and installation... Dan Rocks! His boat is one of the finest GA's that I've had the pleasure to see!
Where'd you get those pantograph wipers? I like them a lot.... :D
Brian
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I noticed that you have a none slip surface on your decks. Can you discibe what you used?
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Brian - the wiper system is all manufactured by Roca, distributed by Imtra. Regular radial wipers on such small windows will only remove a small amount of material, so to be effective you're really pushed toward the pantograph style. I notice Bayweld is using Roca gear on their boats, and Dave from Heavy Weather Boats is sold on them too, won't touch anything else.
Dennis - Anthony (of Cook Inlet Boats, who did my marine carpentry) broadcast medium lag sand over fresh paint, and once that dried, painted a couple more coats, or something along those lines. He did a test on KiwiGrip, which I was pretty excited about, and said it was a joke. Anthony is pretty conservative about the non-skid, as I'm inclined to be out early on ski trips or late on hunting trips, and ice on deck is a real possibility, so non-skid has to be a bit more aggressive than it would be otherwise. After more thought, and seeing the results, I agree. Slipping off the boat is a very poor option up here.
One detail I missed on the non-skid: plan out where you want your cleats, and tape this area off - I have cleats right on the non-skid, and can already see that my dock lines are going to get micro-snags on the non-skid over time and they're going to get beat up pretty fast. Have already envisioned the project of grinding down the non-skid and re-setting the cleats when I get sick of it.......can't win them all, way too many details.
For coating systems, I wanted to stay away from toxic products as much as possible, so went with System Three paint. We tried their primer, but it's too thin, and despite lots of careful faring you really want a high-build primer if you want a decent finish at all. So we ended up using Interlux InterProtect HS and 2000E, and Petit Protect 4700. Couldn't just use one because couldn't find enough of it around. By far the HS was the best, followed by the Petit 4700. I like that these are epoxy primers, so we essentially encapsulated the entire project in a couple layers of extra epoxy prior to painting.
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Dan, do the holes under the splash well drain to the bilge? It almost looks like a tube through to the transom on the starboard side unless it’s light playing a trick on my eyes.
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Todd, I'm not following you perfectly. The scuppers that drain the entire back deck go through the lockers on each side via fiberglass tubes, and out the transom to drain outside the boat. The splashwell has 2 scuppers the drain outside the boat. Does that answer your question?
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Yes. You answered my question. I’m interested in how they work for you. I plan to do something like you have. Have you thought of a name for your boat?
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Brian - the wiper system is all manufactured by Roca, distributed by Imtra. Regular radial wipers on such small windows will only remove a small amount of material, so to be effective you're really pushed toward the pantograph style. I notice Bayweld is using Roca gear on their boats, and Dave from Heavy Weather Boats is sold on them too, won't touch anything else.
Thanks, Dan ... I will stick with Roca if I ever build a big boat again!
Dennis - Anthony (of Cook Inlet Boats, who did my marine carpentry) broadcast medium lag sand over fresh paint, and once that dried, painted a couple more coats, or something along those lines. He did a test on KiwiGrip, which I was pretty excited about, and said it was a joke. Anthony is pretty conservative about the non-skid, as I'm inclined to be out early on ski trips or late on hunting trips, and ice on deck is a real possibility, so non-skid has to be a bit more aggressive than it would be otherwise. After more thought, and seeing the results, I agree. Slipping off the boat is a very poor option up here.
<snip>
My worst slippery deck experience was on someone ELSE's boat ... a fiberglass one. He'd washed out the cockpit with dish soap and water ... but didn't rinse well. It was fine when the deck was dry on the way out, but the weather and seas got really rough and we got a lot of spray in the boat ... which turned the residual soap into DECK LUBE... I nearly broke my ankle, got nasty bruises all around my shins, fell several times in spite of trying to hang on and move carefully. Needless to say, fiberlgass is slippery and his 'poser' imprinted deck was NOT anti-skid. Bad juju! LESSON: Wash your boat out with AMMONIA water, let dry, spray down with Chlorox water to disinfect. Done. Do NOT use SOAP!!
Brian
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Fair enough, no soap.
And here is the question about name again........nothing has struck me yet. It will come in time. Might have to take it out a couple times and get it into its natural habitat for a name to appear. Doesn't look very happy sitting on a boat trailer.....
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<snip>
And here is the question about name again........nothing has struck me yet. It will come in time. Might have to take it out a couple times and get it into its natural habitat for a name to appear. Doesn't look very happy sitting on a boat trailer.....
That's the best way ... let the boat inspire the name. You don't want to name it after a person or you may end up like Jim O'Meara ... who had a wife named Kim. He named his boat the Kim-O .... then they got divorced ... the he had to change the 'K' to a 'J' and his boat became the Jim-O :D
Brian
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"Dr. Seuss" came up as a possible boat name, and I always loved his books so got a kick out of that. Imagine the call on the radio.....
Meanwhile, I'm approaching completion of my main electrical design. This is all in place already minus a few fuses, the battery monitor, solar system, and accessory fuse panel near the panel. Getting it all down in good detail ironed out some misunderstandings I had and revealed a few places I still needed fuses. Excellent exercise, plus when finalized this is getting laminated and screwed inside my aft electrical cabinet door.
Still debating the pot puller, really want to get the Electrodyne and never look back, but it's awfully big. Might be OK with a Discovery Bay model on a custom davit coming out of my aft SB cabinet. The Saf-T-Pullers and related are having production problems I'm told, and I just don't like the looks of them anyway. I do want to pull all 4 pots in one go and get on with things, so the maybe I've gone to all the trouble to make the boat light so I can buy a big hauler.....
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A day of going backwards to bond the fuel fill fittings and fuel tanks. Bonding these items is both required by code and makes perfectly good common sense. I've heard the call on the radio about someone's boat catching on fire, and I'm trying to avoid that through careful wiring.
Carefully found the underfloor sub-stringers with a stud-finder and measurements, successfully hole-sawed into each tank compartment, tapped the supporting lip of the tank without hitting wood or the tank, and bonded the tanks using a 1/4" bolt and #12 wire, using conductive grease just to be on the safe side, and 2 layers of heat shrink wherever the wire went through a bulkhead. Mixed up some thick epoxy and used just enough to get the plug to stick, trying to avoid dripping any epoxy onto the tank and wires. I'll fill the remaining gaps and center holes tomorrow, and eventually smooth it all out and touch it up with the deck paint. Good enough, very happy to be done with this unhappy job.
For the fuel fill, I took out one of the screws, used a long bolt, and set it with conductive grease rather than a dab of sealant so as to repel water while still getting good electrical conduction between the bolt and tank fill. Bonded the bottom of the bolt and ran it back to the bonding/grounding bus.
With all this back-work done, I anticipate some serious forward progress in the next couple weeks. Mostly electrical and electronics. Just keep drilling holes in the boat, eventually it will get done!
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Better safe than sorry! Bonding (keeping everything at ground potential) also helps prevent corrosion. Even though these boats are wood and glass, not metal, it's worthwhile to own and read Nigel Warren's book, Metal Corrosion in Boats (https://www.amazon.com/Metal-Corrosion-Boats-Prevention-Fittings/dp/1574092375/ref=sr_1_1?keywords=metal+boat+corrosion&qid=1553170445&s=gateway&sr=8-1-spell) too.
Brian
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Finished all the major/large wiring today. Now time for the fussy cabin/panel wiring, nav lights, and electronics.
House battery with fuses directly from the battery post, so every inch of every positive wire is protected. In the house battery box is the smart shunt for the Balmar SG200 battery monitor, which is brand new on the market and *far* better than any other battery monitor I've found, in addition to being small and relatively affordable.
Common neutral/ground/bonding bus in aft starboard cabinet before and after putting the protective covers in place. I decided not to invest in crimping tools for wire larger than #8, because I envisioned several spools of large gauge expensive wire left over that I didn't want to have to store and maybe never use. I'm happy with that choice, especially since I have Polar Wire within 10 minutes of the boat shop - they make up large, quality cables on the spot at a very reasonable cost with high quality terminals (they're also THE place in Anchorage to buy wire and heat-shrink terminals). That said, looking at this picture makes me wish I had the tools because I could have tidied things up a bit and done better labeling. Oh well, it's functional and doesn't need to be an art project.
Aft port cabinet has start battery, 2.5 gal diesel tank for Wallas heater, and bilge switch. There will be zero fuel stored inside the cabin.
Shallow aft center "cabinet" over the bilge has the battery combiner switch, again with any necessary fuses mounted directly on the post so any smaller wires branching from larger incoming wires are completely fuse-protected. Makes it look like a Frankenstein switch but again it's very functional and efficient as far as wiring goes. Also have my battery to battery charger, which smart charges the house battery (AGM batteries are fussy about charge voltages) whenever the alternator is charging the start battery. The start battery is only charged from the alternators, which are not smart and thus I imagine the start battery may not last quite as long because there's no good way to implement smart charging to the start battery on an outboard boat - after a few hundred hours of research and trial and error I found that out....
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That looks like a lot of work. Did You stick to the schematic above. I may steal it if you end up entire pleased with it.
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Todd, yes, I've stuck to the wiring diagram above with some tweaks to the kicker steering, which is a Panther Products T-5 steering system. I don't have a lot of data on anyone with Tolmans or GAs using it, so I figure it's still a bit of a hopeful experiment, but looks promising.
I think this diagram could work, or at least be the basis for other GAs.....only each individual is obviously responsible for their own wire and circuit protection sizing. That said, there are a lot of other ways to wire the boat. For instance, some may want the bilge switch somewhere else, or may choose to run power from the house battery to the bilge switch directly, rather than through the battery combiner switch, some may see no need for a battery monitor or battery to battery charger (especially if just using common flooded lead acid batteries rather than AGMs), etc.
BTW, read Calder's section on batteries to get a good understanding of which one would be suit your needs best. I'm going to be on some week-long trips, maybe longer, so the performance of the house battery is critical to my needs, while still wanting to keep things light. That led me to true deep-cycle AGM batteries for a variety of reasons, all of which Calder explains. If you're just going to run out, fish for the day or overnight, and come back in, the house battery and how it gets charged becomes less critical to the experience in some regards.
It's a bit of work, especially working up and within all the lockers. Felt like a pretzel several times!
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I think your system is well laid out and looks very good ... :D
It's been awhile since I've looked at combiners .... I thought they charged both batteries and that one of their main functions was to manage charging so that only one battery charges at a time (generally the start battery gets all the current first if it's a lower-resistance battery compared to the house side, then as it becomes charged, charging switches to the house battery(ies)).... no?
Brian
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Thanks Brian - you're thinking of an automatic charging relay (Blue Sea Systems calls theirs an ACR), often packaged together with a battery switch by Blue Seas and called "Add a battery kit". The problem is that this kit does not provide smart charging, it just provides whatever charging is native to the outboard's simplistic voltage regulator, which if far from optimal for AGM batteries.
So the switch you see in the photos above is just that - a manual switch, which will be normally "on", in which only the start battery interfaces with the engine, and the house battery only interfaces with things I've associated with it. If needed, I can put it to "combine" to start the engine using the house battery. This is a Blue Seas Dual Circuit Plus switch. Critically, it has "make before break" connections, allowing you to flip the switch while the engine is running without any arcing or damage. Another instance where I had to spend many hours just to figure out which combiner switch to get and exactly why! It gets fatiguing.....
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Ah ... I see what you're saying now. I was indeed thinking of the ACR, and I didn't realize the conflict with smart charging that the AGMs need. You're probably about ready to write your own book on wiring boats now, right? LOL....
Brian
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Ha! Nope, I'll leave the book-writing to Nigel Calder's capable hands. If I wasn't so buried in solar work I'd be installing nav lights, but I'll get there very soon. The progress is motivating.
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Ha! Nope, I'll leave the book-writing to Nigel Calder's capable hands. If I wasn't so buried in solar work I'd be installing nav lights, but I'll get there very soon. The progress is motivating.
Cool .... you adding solar to the home front or the boat? Sailboaters have lots of neat ideas for power generation 'off the grid' .... fun to look into.
Brian
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I work for Anchorage Solar and sunny days in late March make the phones ring off the hook, so it's a "work" thing...already have solar on the house, and yes, planning solar for the boat, it's a no brainer for all the camping I plan to do. Go skiing and trickle-charge the batteries while the shrimp pots soak. Triple win-win-win!
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I work for Anchorage Solar and sunny days in late March make the phones ring off the hook, so it's a "work" thing...already have solar on the house, and yes, planning solar for the boat, it's a no brainer for all the camping I plan to do. Go skiing and trickle-charge the batteries while the shrimp pots soak. Triple win-win-win!
Triple win! I like that!
bd
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Thanks Dan, for sharing!
Now go get that thing wet and post pix of blood on the deck! :D All those fish are swimming right past you unmolested and that ain't right!
Brian
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Thanks, Dan. I like your careful detailed approach ... and it'll help others!
Brian
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Making progress on the wiring. Most of the cable runs are done and now I'm working on connections in the field and the various panels. Was struggling with labeling, and today upgraded significantly to the Brady label maker, for which you can buy various sizes of heat shrink cartridges, making labeling almost fun and way faster than anything else I've tried. Highly recommended. It makes labeling easy enough that you'll actually do it, which will be a great help down the road. Here's the machine:
https://www.amazon.com/Brady-BMP21-PLUS-Handheld-Printer-Multi-Line/dp/B00IELD1O4/ref=sr_1_1_sspa?crid=3T5514EBJXZFC&keywords=brady+label+maker&qid=1559884035&s=gateway&sprefix=brady%2Caps%2C233&sr=8-1-spons&psc=1 (https://www.amazon.com/Brady-BMP21-PLUS-Handheld-Printer-Multi-Line/dp/B00IELD1O4/ref=sr_1_1_sspa?crid=3T5514EBJXZFC&keywords=brady+label+maker&qid=1559884035&s=gateway&sprefix=brady%2Caps%2C233&sr=8-1-spons&psc=1)
The photo is of the lighting distribution panel showing the labels - everything else is still a mess! Was very nice to see all the lights come on and the dimmer switches work perfectly, allowing dimming of all the cabin lights except the deck lights.
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Boy ... it's tough to imagine how anyone will do a better than the bristol work that you're doing on your boat, Dan. The wiring looks great (LOVE those nice neat labels!) and it's awesome that you're sharing you circuit diagrams with everyone ... wiring tends to be one of the more challenging parts of the build, so help like this is fantastic!
Brian
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Where's the wiring for the Air Conditioner? ;D
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Thanks Brian. Ha! Maybe I'll wire in a heat pump in the future.
You want to know what's hard? Windshield wiper wiring. What a pain in the butt!! Controls are either very expensive, cumbersome/unintuitive, or a combo of both. I'll update my diagram once I get it figured out, possibly today. When I was having my bow railing made up, Dave at Heavy Weather Boats commented that wipers are one of the most difficult parts of outfitting a boat. I believe it now. More on that later, I definitely have advice to share.
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Thanks Brian. Ha! Maybe I'll wire in a heat pump in the future.
You want to know what's hard? Windshield wiper wiring. What a pain in the butt!! Controls are either very expensive, cumbersome/unintuitive, or a combo of both. I'll update my diagram once I get it figured out, possibly today. When I was having my bow railing made up, Dave at Heavy Weather Boats commented that wipers are one of the most difficult parts of outfitting a boat. I believe it now. More on that later, I definitely have advice to share.
Renn once said to me, "One manual wiper on the captain's side .... who needs more than that? :D
Brian
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Thanks so much for the pics Dan. Post as many as you can please, wiring is a black hole for me at this point.
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More wiring progress. Got the fuel gauges to work only when either kicker or main engine ignition are on, heater fan works, battery monitor works, cabin and deck lights work, fridge works. It's a nice feeling when a device you installed several months ago works when you finally get it wired. Second detailed photo shows cabin port and SB dimmer switches from Marine Beam. Next time I do an instrument dash, I'm going to cut the plywood out, and use a piece of 1/8" aluminum powder-coated. Working with 1/2" plywood is a hassle since many things only fit a 3/16" panel or less unless you choose very carefully. Re-worked my cabin wiring diagram once again.
It's interesting to me that there are several references that focus on how to design a good electrical system, with some installation tips (Calder, etc.) but nothing I can find on how to efficiently do the installation. There is definitely a sequence that works best, and a handful of tools and material selections that make life way easier. There's a book waiting to be written....
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Finished the cabin electrical wiring finally. Deleted the cabin wiring diagrams above, replacing them with the diagram below, that now includes wiring for running/anchor lights through a double-pole double-throw (DPDT) switch. Also deleted a photo that came in sideways. I'll take some pictures of the finished installation in the next few days.
Here are my thoughts on the electrical system from what I have, in some cases painfully, learned:
1. Every single current-carrying wire should have circuit protection, period. Battery-mounted fuses make this easy to do these days, ABYC exceptions for main battery cables be damned. Be sure the circuit protection is appropriate for the smallest wire in that circuit. Know how to use ampacity and voltage loss tables when sizing wires, and be conservative (size wires up when in doubt).
2. Do your wire and equipment layout/design first before running out to buy equipment, wire, etc. Understand how things are going to be wired. There's a lot of time to be saved, and safety to be gained, by doing your layout ahead of time. I posted my diagrams for a starting point/inspiration.
3. Understand batteries - the different types, how to size them, how they like to be charged. Read Nigel Calder's book and understand it. Another huge time saver. Note that AGM batteries being charged directly from an outboard is not ideal and will likely result in reduced battery life.
4. Be sure to bond any aluminum fuel tanks and tank fill fittings to your common neutral bus.
5. Windshield wiper installation is a complex and shockingly expensive sub-project. I highly recommend the Roca W12 wiper motors over any of the junk from AFI, Marinco, etc. The Roca motors are quiet, and feature super nice infinitely adjustable sweep that is simple to set up, maximizing the sweep area on your window. I tried to avoid the synchronized controls in favor of the Cole-Hersey knob-type controls, but regret this. Get the synchronized controller with its switch, which I may ultimately end up doing. Having 3 wipers out of sync can drive you bonkers, and my attempt to get the outside wipers in sync manually failed - now the outside wipers really only function on interval, which should get me by for awhile. Get the control!
6. For most common anchor/all around top lights and side running lights, you'll need a DPDT switch that allows the forward-facing top light to turn on when you want running lights OR you want anchor light.
7. In general, the best sequence of work is to mount ALL of your electrical equipment, roughly run ALL of your wires a little long (all of them labeled at both ends), locate wire anchors (typically zip ties with anchor-blocks) then either start terminations on the field wiring and work toward the central panel, or vise-versa.
8. Have a way to label the wires worked out. I ended up with the Brady labeling machine that prints on heat shrink and love that solution. You can also use a cheap $25 label maker and use non-adhesive low-temp clear heat shrink to cover the labels. I could not find the appropriate clear heat shrink locally.
That's enough for now.
Moving on to the electronics installation now.....more opportunities to drill holes in the boat!
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Thanks, Dan! I REALLY appreciate all that you've gone through and how you're sharing it for others to benefit from. I'm going to cut-n-paste your info into a FAQ file and probably add a couple of notes ... like bonding also needs to go all the way to the motors where the zincs are, a full reference to Nigel's book, a note on excess 'service loop' wire and drip-loops, ignition proofness, the purpose of branch circuit protection versus device protection, sizing of neutrals etc ... just a few tidbits to polish off the topic enough for someone to get started. The electrical stuff AND electronics are always a challenging subject.
Brian
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Brian, I'm quite sure the outboard anodes are tied to the engine neutral wire, so that part is taken care of by the manufacturer. They may not have a direct wire connection, but they're attached to the metal structure of the motor, and that same structure is bonded to the engine neutral bus. For that reason (engine anodes being the ultimate end-point of the neutral/ground/bonding circuit), I prefer to connect the engine neutrals to the common neutral bus rather than the start battery. Does this jive or am I missing something?
For those building hulls now or in the future, plan out your wire runs now! A good one is getting equipment on the port side energized - creating a wire chase while you're building the hull/cabin would be easy, save time in wiring, result in shorter wire runs, and be a lot less work. I would recommend such a chase from SB to port just inside the floor of the V-berth, essentially extending the cabin floor a couple inches into the V-berth space, so wires could be run through the V-berth lockers to the port side.
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Thanks Dan, great info, however my head it already hurting and I haven’t even started electrical yet. Going to start reading now, so in six months I will have a clue what I am doing. When you get a chance can you post pics of your components i.e. buses, fuses, that coincide with your diagram. I’m very visual and diagrams sometimes cause me brain strain until I can put a picture to it. I can plug some of your pics into the diagram already. Thanks again. Can’t wait for the wet pics of the boat
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Brian, I'm quite sure the outboard anodes are tied to the engine neutral wire, so that part is taken care of by the manufacturer.
They may not have a direct wire connection, but they're attached to the metal structure of the motor, and that same structure is bonded to the engine neutral bus. For that reason (engine anodes being the ultimate end-point of the neutral/ground/bonding circuit), I prefer to connect the engine neutrals to the common neutral bus rather than the start battery. Does this jive or am I missing something?
Yes, but for all manufacturers and ages of motors? All modern motors, probably going back several decades at least into the earlier half of the 1970s are done as you describe as far as I know.
As for engine wires, it's OK to do as you have done (as seen in your photo above) as long as both hot and neutral are the same gauge AND the ground buss is rated for the ampacity of those wires. People generally try to minimize connections on the motor wires because connections can get hot and cause issues, and fewer connections means fewer ways for your engine to not start. Otherwise you're fine ... I already know you're the kind of guy that'll keep all of the above in tip-top clean and working shape.
For those building hulls now or in the future, plan out your wire runs now! A good one is getting equipment on the port side energized - creating a wire chase while you're building the hull/cabin would be easy, save time in wiring, result in shorter wire runs, and be a lot less work. I would recommend such a chase from SB to port just inside the floor of the V-berth, essentially extending the cabin floor a couple inches into the V-berth space, so wires could be run through the V-berth lockers to the port side.
Good advice! Read the material ahead of time ....while your epoxy is curing!
Brian
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Mounted the trim tabs and transducer today. After I run these cables most of the way, I'll start installing antennas and other electronics equipment. When all the wires are run I'll tidy up all my wiring and take more photos. All the zip ties are still loose and things are not going to be finalized until the electronics are in and functional. Found some 3M adhesive zip-tie anchors with a 50-lb pull rating, so am trying those on the transom wire runs. They look promising...we'll see how they fare in the sun and salt......
Now I can also start planning out the port side swim step and ladder, but that can wait, I want all the electronics mounted and wiring finalized first.
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It's amazing how much time can go into wiring. The devil's in the details, and there are a lot of details! You're doing bristol work though and you're boat's really turning out to be fantastic ... great times ahead!
Brian
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Thanks for sharing with the rest of us
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The past few days have demonstrated to me how "non-standard" anything marine is, to a very frustrating and time-consuming level. I'm still a bit in shock. First, went to mount my Simrad HS60 GPS compass. It comes with a bracket that allows it to be mounted to an antenna base. However, the back of the bracket has a slot and large hole (1st photo). The antenna base will be open to the inside of the boat where the cable is routed. There is now way to seal this hole. It faces aft, yet I know way too much about wind-blown rain and snow, and feel strongly that water would fairly easily find its way in there. I could have put some gorilla tape over it, but it's very against my grain to start band-aiding things together on a new build. So I researched more and came to a dead end. I don't want to mount it flat to the roof because it looks goofy and for other reasons. So I finally tossed in the towel, drew a sketch, and sent it to my friend who runs a metal fab shop (2nd photo). I'll have the custom mount early next week, tilted at the perfect angle, so several problems are solved at once. Powder-coated white it will look nice next to the radar mount. Good grief!
Next up was VHF and AIS antenna mounts. Should be pretty straight-forward, yes? Well, I like to use acorn nuts rather than normal nuts when exposed inside the cabin, so that means you get to cut all the bolts to juuuust the right length. So I did that, and the front worked out pretty well, but for some reason the roof thickness varied by 3/8" between mount positions (!?) so I got to cut 4 of the bolts twice. Plus when I torqued them down the foam compressed on top and the 1/4" interior skin gave a hair, so I got to cut all 8 bolts one last time. Good grief!
Now the fun part. I screw the antenna down, and when it bottoms out on the mount, the cable stuck out at exactly the wrong spot - gets in the way of the handle both up and down. So I stole the 1" lock nut from the GPS compass mount and used that as a jam nut for the AIS antenna mount. The VHF mount I just wrapped the cable around the backside and that worked out good enough. Seems like they should come with a 1" jam nut or a set screw....and I almost drilled and tapped for a set screw but I decided against it.
Next I tried 2 brands of cable seals. Blue Sea, which is typically top shelf, requires you to drill your own hole through the rubber grommet. This is difficult to do well (I know from other experiences drilling holes through rubber), plus they are bulky, so I returned those. ScanStrut makes a nice one, but their hole size that fits VHS cable is just a hair too loose. So I had to wrap the cable with self-sealing silicone tape where it passes through the gland (photo 4). That worked well.
So the photos show the saga. I always like to countersink any holes in fiberglass before bedding any equipment (photo 3) - it helps avoid spider cracks and gives the sealant a good place to bed. I also bed the head of any bolts in sealant so water doesn't migrate down the bolt shaft and weep into the cabin (photo 4).
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Got all the electronics equipment mounted and some of the wiring complete. Helm area is coming together. Fussy work trying to find space for everything, including all the cable routing......but quality gear. I've got a pretty comprehensive package, most of it Simrad:
- 12" display
- Totalscan skimmer sonar mounted on transom
- 4G radar
- autopilot
- AIS (transmit and receive) with its own VHF antenna
- Precision 9 GPS compass mounted ~ waterline just under the floor near the helm
- HS60 GPS compass mounted on the roof
- VHF radio with its own VHF antenna
The display felt low, with the bottom blocked by the wheel, so I raised it up 1 5/8" using cut brass nipples as spacers. I moved it left of center on the helm so none of the screen blocks my view over the gunwale forward, plus others can see the screen better and it will be easier to see from the back deck when we're fishing. I was thinking I could have gotten away with the 16" screen.....which would have been quite the overkill!
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Very nice. You must be close
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Wow... as always, extremely professional work! Very nice set of gear too ... 12" screen is plenty!
Brian
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Dan did you install an alternator protection device in your boat?
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Dj -
I have not installed such a device. I read up on the Sterling Products offering and see how that could be a good deal, but it involves routing a pair of wires up to the engine, and doing some wiring inside the engine, all of which may/may not void the engine warranty, and it's a hassle figuring out how to seal such a wire as it runs into the engine compartment.
I'm going to pass on this opportunity to add any further items to the electrical system :)
Thanks!
Dan
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Dan, have you named her yet? Do you have a splash date yet?
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No and no. A name has not yet developed, and although I'm very close, my schedule for the upcoming month is nuts. I'm about 2 hours away from the water, with a drive through a one-way tunnel, launch fees, etc. so launching is not all that casual, I'll wait until I'm good and ready.
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Back in August, I figured the boat would weigh between 4475 and 4625 lb, all outfitted.
Today, I drug the boat back to the house (shop space lease is over) and ran it over the scale on the way, and it weighs 4495 with everything except the anchor system in place (dry), so I'm on the low end of the target range, which I'm very happy with.
Additional weight will be safety gear, tools, spare parts, dinghy, pot puller, etc. but it's useful to compare the boat weight outfitted and dry without all the "extras".
I probably won't get much work done on it until early August, my schedule is full of guests all through July, and it's time to go dipnetting tomorrow :)
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The boat has a LOT of capacity .... Kent Cannon, when his 29-footer is loaded for bear, has 8000-8500 lbs on the water when he sets out. That represents a payload of around 4000# ... pretty crazy. A 30' Kodiak would carry even more.
Brian
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Official launch date will be July 17 in Seward to coincide with my electronics supplier's visit to Seward to work on some boats there. He will assist with starting up and commissioning all the electronics and showing me the full range of capabilities, which will certainly save me months of reading manuals and trial and error.
GPS antenna and forward deck lights installed, just waiting on a roof wire seal to finish wiring the lights. Wipers done, radar and nav lights previously mounted, so all the outside electrical involving holes through the cabin (I think) is just about done.
One of the handiest items West Marine sells are the antenna clips shown below - inexpensive, very handy, and effective. A rare trilogy in marine equipment....
It's going to be a very busy couple of weeks rounding up safety gear, getting the anchor system in place, tidying up all the wire runs, and possibly getting my solar panel mounted if there's time.
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Fantastic on the upcoming launch! Seward's a beautiful place to christen the boat and have it's first launch!
Brian
PS: Are you planning on arranging for some good on-the-water pix, perhaps including side views of the boat on plane and what not? Just curious ... looking forward to seeing your beautiful boat action :)
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I will not have another boat running with me on this trip, so not likely to get any decent photos. That will happen on a future trip unless I get lucky. I'm stoked to get it wet finally!
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Congratulations. I’m sure everything will go well!!
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I will not have another boat running with me on this trip, so not likely to get any decent photos. That will happen on a future trip unless I get lucky. I'm stoked to get it wet finally!
I'm stoked too! All your time and effort will be worth it when you look out through that windshield and hit that throttle.... :)
Brian
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Last electrical item completed (other than solar system, which will be later) - wiring the forward deck lights. Marine Beam usually provides a long cable with their lights, but in this case I had to run a cable above the roof and make the splice outside, which I'm not a big fan of. In case anyone wonders how to seal wires through the roof, I have been using these wire seals from Scanstrut which I like a lot. Other brands make similar offerings. First you drill your hole for your cable, then mount the base of the cable seal, then run the wire through the hole, make the connection with heat-shrink butt connectors (in this case a step-down butt connector from my 16 gauge to 20 gauge from the light), seal the whole works with adhesive heat-shrink, so it grips the virgin cable on both ends, then place the split-rubber gasket, secure the top over the gasket and you have a leak-free assembly. Finally I used a zip-tie base and zip ties to anchor the cable. Should be a trouble-free installation.
Fired up the electronics and realized I have not connected the sonar, and further realized I don't have the sonar cable and there are none in town so that probably means no depth-sounder or fish-finder on the first outing next week, bummer! Going to have to run careful, following the charts, to stay off the bottom.
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Learned some things at yesterday's abbreviated launch. Was so busy troubleshooting and trying to keep up with my electronics technician I didn't take any decent photos of it in the water at all. Next time!:
1. With the top of the back deck 3" above the stringers, the deck stayed dry despite running in a 3 ft sloppy chop. The only time I noticed a little water on the deck near the scuppers was at launch, which is understandable.
2. The electric push-button steering for the kicker works as designed, but is clunky in a busy harbor. It will take a long time to get proficient with it. Jury is still out on this, I'm not sold on it.
3. I was shocked at how vibration-free and quiet the 250 Suzuki was at idle. There was zero vibration, and it was hard to hear if it was actually running or not. I've heard people say this, but experiencing it was surprising. What a beautiful engine! And I absolutely love the electronic shift/throttle - no more cable creep!
4. I need to lower my sonar transducer so that its longitudinal mid-line is on plane with the boat bottom. Was not explained in the installation instructions, but my electronics tech says this is how it needs to be mounted to utilize its full potential. His deep understanding of the electronics package saved me months of research, and I'm sure I would have never even figured out some of the capabilities without him.
Lot more work to do to get it fully outfitted for fishing/shrimping/camping, but it's functional and it's on!
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Congratulations!!! ;D ;D ;D ;D ;D ;D ;D ;D
Can't wait to see the on-the-water pictures! (Hopefully with fish blood all over that brand new paint!)
Brian
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Got out on a 3-day shakedown very bare-bones cruise. Boat is basically just a functional shell, still not outfitted to shrimp or fish and nowhere to even hang a towel or a sock on the boat yet, so it's spartan to say the least. I consider the build still underway, thus I'm still posting in the build thread, as I learned a lot that will probably be useful to other builders
1. I raised the deck 3" above the stringers, and with no load on the back deck, the scuppers are right at 5" above the waterline, maybe 5 1/4" at best. The deck remains reliably dry. Will post an update when loaded for shrimp/skiing, etc.
2. Boat's best planing speed seems to be right at 22 knots as Brian designed, 3500 rpm, 3.25 nmpg, 6.8 gal/hr with the Suzi 250 with a Solas Lexor Plus 16 x 19 stainless prop. I was hoping to burn 6 gal/hr or a bit less at cruise, so I suspect trying a few different props would be worthwhile. My goal is to get maximum fuel economy in the 20-25 knot range and still be able to reliably go 35 knots even loaded. Could care less about acceleration or hole shot, and anything over 35 knots is unrealistic for a variety of reasons. My 3 mpg point was reached at 28 knots around 4000-4100 rpm. I figure the boat weight on the water on this trip was 5200 lb, and that will go up to 6500 lb fully loaded for a long trip. Any prop suggestions from other users?
3. As expected, with all the wiring, house battery, kicker, helm, etc. she lists to SB a few degrees, so the trim tabs were useful right away. I think they should be standard issue on such a light boat - the boat handles noticeably better when running dead on vs that few degrees of list.
4. I need another access hatch in the aft end of the keel compartment just forward of the fuel tank beneath the cabin. All these compartments down the centerline of the boat have limber holes in each bulkhead, so a bit of fuel smell was detectable in the cabin. It wasn't much, but since I plan to camp a lot in the boat, I plan to put a plug in the aft end of this storage locker, and just remember to check the locker for moisture occasionally, and probably just towel it out. That will eliminate fuel vapors from migrating from the fuel tanks into the cabin.
5. The autopilot is excessively useful and convenient and remarkably accurate - much better than any other autopilot I've used. It's native to the Simrad main display and it just works. Unless you've run these and really like to try to keep the boat tracking straight through the slop, I'd recommend giving them strong consideration. It frees me up to monitor other things, and allows me to stretch and relax. I love it.
6. Given that I achieved the boat's design planing speed at around 3500 rpm, I cannot imagine this boat with a 200 hp engine - it would be revved up awfully high just to get to cruise, and have little left for heavy loads or a bit of additional speed, and I would think fuel economy would suffer. Seems like 250 is perfect for the 28.
7. I ran the boat straight through Port Wells at 22 knot cruise on autopilot in the typical 3+ ft slop with frequent whitecaps, wave direction be damned. This is a notorious stretch of cross-seas, with katabatic winds from the north off the glaciers of College Fjord and easterly or westerly winds down Passage Canal mixing. The boat rolled smoothly and predictably with the northerly swells, and pounded softly on the backs of the easterlies occasionally. I was pleasantly impressed, the boat handles nicely!
8. The windshield wipers were very handy on several occasions, even in the light mist. I can't imagine being without them. That said I either need to drive them all individually or get the synchronizing box, as my attempt to run the port/SB wipers off the same switch is a failure. They get out of synch after a few cycles and then never turn off......so I have to turn them off with the breaker to reset things. Back to the drawing board on this one.
9. I slept athwartships happily, and I'm 6'-2" tall.
10. Notice! Building the bunk tops parallel to the stringers predictably yields the aft end of the bunks lower than the forward end. I wanted to put the bunk in at a slant of 2" above parallel at aft end and 2" below parallel at the forward end, and dearly wish I hadn't allowed myself to be talked out of it. It's a big deal when you spend a lot of time sleeping on the boat as I intend to do. Am I really considering tearing this out and re-doing it?? Sigh.....
11. The 22 lb claw anchor and 40-ft of 5/16" chain is a pretty weighty pull, so I would not want to go with more weight than that. Maybe 30-ft of chain would have been plenty!
The pictures of the main display were taken in a foot and a half to two foot light chop.
That's about all, ask any questions if this raises any issues!
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Are the bunks built to Brian’s spec? We’re they built differently? I’m very curious, your situation is something I surely want to avoid. Thx
Todd
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Todd, I just reviewed Brian's construction sequence, and he has the bunk tops built parallel to the top of the stringers, essentially. Given that the boat will always sit with the stringers higher forward relative to the water surface, I think this is an oversight. Everyone I know sleeps with their head aft, and nobody likes to sleep with their head downhill, so I dearly wanted at least a 4" net elevation change from aft to forward, but someone, either Brian or Anthony, talked me out of it. I knew it then, and I proved it now, so it's mine to own and yours to contemplate! I made the final call, so if I want it changed it will be me that makes the painful change!
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Thanks Dan. Congrats on getting out on the water. Great suggestions for us guys just getting going.
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Todd, I just reviewed Brian's construction sequence, and he has the bunk tops built parallel to the top of the stringers, essentially. Given that the boat will always sit with the stringers higher forward relative to the water surface, I think this is an oversight. Everyone I know sleeps with their head aft, and nobody likes to sleep with their head downhill, so I dearly wanted at least a 4" net elevation change from aft to forward, but someone, either Brian or Anthony, talked me out of it. I knew it then, and I proved it now, so it's mine to own and yours to contemplate! I made the final call, so if I want it changed it will be me that makes the painful change!
Probably Anthony talked you out of it ... or at least I remember no such conversation! In any case, the bunk tops were make parallel to the stringers as a best compromise. Depending on boat length v. loading, some Great Alaskans will trim a little low at the bow when people are sleeping, reversing the slope that you experience. This is why I suggest some downward slope aft to help the cockpit remain self-bailing regardless of loading. These are light boats for their weight (why you get double the gas mileage compared to others). It's nearly impossible to predict night time trim with people sleeping onboard. With your long house and healthy motor, your trim is the other way .. a tad higher at the bow, hence your downhill sleeping experience. So ... If you're going to sleep alone most of the time, then do what ya gotta do with those bunk tops. I'd probably just cut out the tops, add sloped spacers, and put on new tops.
Brian
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Regarding the bunk tops, on my next trip out, I'm bringing a level, and I'm going to see how this all works out with a couple people on the bunks.
I'm also thinking of mounting my spare smaller anchor on the bow, so I can get some use out of it, and it will help the trim. That way I could use it as a lunch hook rather than it sitting inside the port bunk locker.
Maybe the real answer is build the boat sans the bunks, get it on the water with a level, and take your best guess from there - that would save a lot of "what-if" questions. I can see Brian's point that it would be very tough to model that and figure it out in the shop.
Another point is that we moved the anchor well bulkhead forward a few inches, and there's still plenty room in the anchor well. Further, I see no reason for a tote or basket for the rode - just flake it out on the deck. I'm going to put some small "footmans loops" on the deck and run a 1" cam strap through them, to tie the rode and chain down so it will stay put when I get into a nasty sea. In the 3+ ft chop, the chain didn't even slap once as far as I could tell.
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Maybe this will help. Have you considered having a talented upholstery wizard simple turn your cushions into a wedge? At least you wouldn’t have to tear that new boat all apart. Sounds reasonable
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That's an interesting approach - I think that would be expensive, but I'll keep that idea in my back pocket. Thanks!
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Maybe this will help. Have you considered having a talented upholstery wizard simple turn your cushions into a wedge? At least you wouldn’t have to tear that new boat all apart. Sounds reasonable
Or maybe build a wedge/sloped platform that'll just lay on top of the existing bunks for now, and when you think you've got the appropriate slope figured out, then build it in permanently. Try before you buy....
Brian
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Did you use a combination of models? From what I can see you used the cuddly cabin of a prince Rupert and the main cabin is a Newport design.
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Did you use a combination of models? From what I can see you used the cuddly cabin of a prince Rupert and the main cabin is a Newport design.
FYI - There is no reason you can't mix and match, or tweak the various models to be all your own. That's one of the reasons for building your own, optimal for YOU, boat.
Brian
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DJ, It's neither. My cuddy roof is approximately parallel to the waterline, and that line extends all the way to the aft cabin bulkhead, forming the bottom contour of the cabin. Brian's Newport suggestion shows a forward sloping cuddy (decreasing useful interior space), whereas the Prince Rupert shows a forward rising cuddy more or less parallel to the shear (increasing interior space in what for me is the least useful part of the cuddy).
I came to my design by first determining the height of the bunks, then measuring how much space I needed to sit upright without having to bend my neck in the cuddy. The reason is I plan to camp, perhaps for over a week, and thus ease of moving about/living in the cabin was the governing factor. My cuddy roofline is parallel to the top of the bunks. Of course, I dearly wish the bunks were about 4" higher on the aft side for sleeping comfort so the whole thing is screwed up, and at some point I'll rebuild the bunks and collision chamber to make it the way I want it.
Basically, I used my body as a measuring guide throughout the cabin build, and took 3 days to design the helm and came pretty close to nailing it, so it was time well spent.
I'm out there today moving the transducer for the 3rd time (too high - it's not in the water and doesn't read accurately, too low - it's sending up a rooster-tail of spray creating unnecessary drag).
Also, of note, I'm working on several ventilation issues. Ventilation for the refrigerator, ventilation for my battery to battery charger, ventilation for start battery, and ventilation to move fuel fumes out of the cabin that filter up from the bilge through floor hatches. I'll post some pictures. The take-home is that it would be super, super useful to cut 2" limber holes throughout the length of the bilge (instead of the 1" holes I have), put a dorade box and cowl vent on the cuddy facing forward, ducted into the bilge, and a second cowl vent on the aft bilge/splashwell area facing aft. That would effectively move air through the bilge while running, removing any fuel fumes, which I'm super sensitive to. A small in-line explosion-proof fan in the vent pipe would allow periodic purging of fumes while sitting at anchor.
On the next boat some things will be different, while many would remain similar. Wait, did I really say that??? Ufffff......
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Thanks Dan. I think I will do the same. I have already designed the under deck ventilation , going with the forced fan ventilation. I am a little surprised you’re getting fumes up from the tank.
Thanks Brian I do enjoy making little changes that make it mine.
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Fuel hoses are permeable, so they allow some fumes. It's not much, but when you're inside the cabin for awhile, the little bit of exposure gets to you. Would love to see how you're doing the bilge ventilation!
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I will be off chartering a boat in the San Juan islands this month but when I get back I will post pics of my ventilation after I install my tank. Dan not sure you saw my post but what prop are you running with?
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DJ, I'm running a Solas Lexor Plus 16 x 19 stainless prop. There's a bit of performance data in my long post I put up a few weeks back after my 3-day trip. That's not the prop you end up with if you use Solas' prop finder, but it seems to be in the ballpark and I'll defer to my engine mechanic's much greater experience bank for now.
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I realized I hadn't allowed for fridge ventilation when I installed it, so I pulled it, added leg extensions (of course each one a custom height to account for the floor irregularities) to meet the manufacturer's bottom clearance, and cut a hole in the cabinet side for the cooling fan exhaust. Works great, can feel a bit of air moving through the hole when the fridge kicks on. Now it should run nicely without working too hard and discharging the house battery too fast.
Also ordered my solar components and am tidying up some other projects with an eye on another trip in a couple weeks to really put her through the paces.
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What is the brand of fridge you went with?
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Isotherm Cruise 85 Elegance. It's a 3.0 cubic foot model. My primary reason is Isotherm offers their Smart Energy Control add-on, which decreases the temperature of the fridge when battery voltage is high (ie engine running), and decreases the cycles to the maximum extent possible when battery voltage is lower. Savings of 35 to 50% are claimed. Even if it results in 20% savings, it's worth it to me because refrigeration is the #1 battery eater on a camping boat.
Secondary reasons were light weight, good compressor, and quality reviews.
https://www.indelwebastomarine.com/int/products/fridges-freezers/cruise-marine-refrigerators/medium-fridges-65-85-l/cruise-85-elegance/
https://www.indelwebastomarine.com/us/products/cooling-technology/isotherm-smart-energy-control/
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DJ, I'm running a Solas Lexor Plus 16 x 19 stainless prop. There's a bit of performance data in my long post I put up a few weeks back after my 3-day trip. That's not the prop you end up with if you use Solas' prop finder, but it seems to be in the ballpark and I'll defer to my engine mechanic's much greater experience bank for now.
Usually the 'prop finder' calculators assume a deeper V, more displacement. The Great Alaskan series of boats have a modest deadrise and are relatively light.
bd
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Installed the solar panels and finally decided on a pot puller.
Solar panels are Renogy flexible panels, which have been newly re-issued after some de-laminating and associated problems with their first series. The striking feature of this new series is their 5 year workmanship and incredible 25-year performance warranty, far exceeding any other warranty for flexible panels, no matter how much money you spend, and these are reasonable. I work in the solar industry which is helpful. I chose to use two 50-watt panels near the radar and nav light setup to limit the impact of shading as the boat/sun swirl around, and then one larger 100-watt panel aft of that where shading will be less of an issue. I almost always take the dinghy down when at anchor, so shading from the dinghy will be negligible when it matters most, which is at anchor. I will install one charge controller (from Genasun) for each panel eventually but other projects have priority. This represents the last of the roof penetrations which feels like a small milestone.
After considering the Electrodyne, My-T-Hauler, Discovery Bay, and EZ-Pull models extensively, I chose the Discovery Bay. I like to be able to store the davit and motor in a locker, because on most trips, pulling pots takes up such a small percentage of the trip time, I like having the gear out of the way. This means I want something easy to deploy and set up. The Electrodyne is just too big and heavy in every way. The My-T-Hauler has a strange line configuration that does not allow hands-free operation plus the foot switch seems fussy for easy deployment. The Discovery Bay looks more finished and I like the line configuration better than the EZ Pull, plus it is available in stock at LFS here in Anchorage. I'm 100% pleased with my choice - it hauled a 3-pot string hands-free, passing knots, and was plenty fast, and quiet. Their 3-piece davit setup is perfect for my needs. Highly recommended.
I took a level reading on the cuddy bunks with two of us in the cuddy and 200 lb of fish in a cooler on the back deck, and the bunks are only about 1" lower on the aft end. Sleeping was not an issue, so it must have been a visual distortion that made me think they were grossly out of level. Thankful to avoid re-working the bunk tops!
Also, at full throttle, I only got 5550 rpm, whereas redline is at 6100, so I ordered a 16 x 17 to replace the 16 x 19 prop - that should bring the rpms up closer to range, and hopefully improve fuel economy.
Finally, I hadn't really thought about anchoring up while halibut fishing, plus pulling a 22-lb anchor and 40-ft of 5/16" chain in colder weather is not going to be fun, so the latest project is sizing a drum anchor winch, probably from EZ Anchor Puller company. Much less fussy than a windlass and all above decks installation, plus lots of people here in Alaska love them.
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Finally, I hadn't really thought about anchoring up while halibut fishing, plus pulling a 22-lb anchor and 40-ft of 5/16" chain in colder weather is not going to be fun, so the latest project is sizing a drum anchor winch, probably from EZ Anchor Puller company. Much less fussy than a windlass and all above decks installation, plus lots of people here in Alaska love them.
When we anchor for bottom fishing, we use the float system for anchor retrieval, like this.. https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=UHIUVuc_M4I (https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=UHIUVuc_M4I)
Works great when you're the only boat around, and you are in reasonably open conditions.
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Thanks Jim, problem is I often anchor in tight coves, some of which are surprisingly deep, so not enough room to comfortably use the float system consistently, plus handling all that wet line later in October or early March is going to be pretty cold and slippery work. I'm strongly leaning toward the drum anchor winch.
Meanwhile, the quickest/easiest boat project yet - rain visors for the portlites. Ventilation through the boat while camping is even more crucial when it's raining, so this is a simple fix to allow the portlites to be open even when raining. Also good while the boat is parked at home on the trailer - no worries about rain entering while allowing for some ventilation.
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Those look great !
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Dan,
That is a great pot puller, I have a friend with one and have used its lots pulling shrimp pots.
Your boat keeps looking better, cant wait to see your anchor winch system installed, the drum system looks trouble free with more usable space below as a bonus.
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Finally slowing down enough to post some pictures of this fall's continued outfitting work.
The anchor winch is surprisingly compact, yet still has 500 ft 1/4" dyneema, 100 ft 3/8" double braid for a shock absorption snubber, and 40 ft of chain. Had fun learning how to splice an eye properly in double-braid. The anchor winch is not really that noticeable from outside the boat - looks like it is supposed to be there. Ran 2 AWG wire from the house battery all the way forward to the winch, using a MRBF fuse right in the house battery box. Took some re-working of the battery box to get everything to fit and be over-current protected.
Installed an Ongaro windshield wiper synchronizer in my electrical cabinet, and it works like a jewel. Wiper system works perfectly now.
Installed the charge controllers and rest of the wiring for the solar system, and it works incredibly well - it even produces power when the whole system is covered in a blue tarp!
The boat electrical and major rigging is now complete. Only thing remaining is a swim step and ladder to be installed on the port side of the transom, and some trim and storage work inside the cabin. Prince William Sound has been a mess this fall so was not able to get out for hunting trip, so putting the boat away for the winter and will report back next spring with the final touches and to report on engine performance now that I've installed a less aggressive prop.
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Hi Dan ... thanks, as always, for your posts and pictures. It takes time and effort, and it's nice to see someone go that extra mile for our sake here in the forums!
Is that windlass custom? It looks very natural on your boat! Great capacity too ... necessary for fishing Alaska's deeep waters :)
Can you share who your solar company is? Do you have solar design guides for cabins, boats, and that sort of thing? Is it YOUR company ... or, what's your role there? Your knowledge seems deep and professional ... guys like me need guys like you to help us on solar stuff :D
Brian
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The anchor winch (it's not a windlass technically) is from EZ Anchor Puller, model EZ-4. Not a single custom thing about it. Just be sure you beef up the underside of the anchor well - it comes with an aluminum backer plate, but I still wanted a full 1" of plywood/glass/epoxy underneath the footprint of it, 1/2" just didn't seem enough. Also, you need to calculate the wire size to handle the 100A motor!
I work for Anchorage Solar part time, helped him start the business and do special projects for him. Given that I'm an engineer and also have been in the building trades for 30+ years, it's a good fit for me. I don't really need the work but the owner is a friend with stellar integrity and we have an awesome crew so it's easy to want to be involved. Solar for marine applications is covered fairly well in Calder's book, and also Pacific Yacht Systems has several very good Youtube videos on marine electrical and a couple specifically on solar. At this point I'm pretty comfortable with all the marine electrical and very comfortable with the solar aspect. If anyone wants help I may be able to assist.
Happy to post to the forum, I've gotten a lot of good ideas from here!
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Thanks :D I haven't taken the time to look into solar solutions yet, but want to ... I'm working on a new website (different business) and conversion of the GA plans to metric at the moment ... well, LOTS of moments :)
bd
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Finished a few finicky exterior outfitting projects since it's been so crazy warm up here. First up, lexan awnings so one window on each side of the cabin can remain open even if it's raining - a critical consideration for spending several days camping. Considered fabric and a few other approaches, and had to do a lot of tinkering to get to this result. On the 3rd photo (sorry it's out of focus) you can see the aluminum spacer between the main aluminum angle, and the interior fastener is a knurled thumb-screw threaded through the aluminum angle to capture the lexan (there's a matching hole in the lexan) so it doesn't fly away in the wind. The end of the screw comes just shy of making contact with the roof, and I used a rubber washer so when you crank down on the screw, it compresses the washer and thus should not rattle out. We'll see!
Next up the pot puller mount, which needed a cap/plug to keep water out of the locker it runs into. Finally schemed up a modified DWV test plug that works perfectly.
And finally, an off-the-shelf Garelick swim step, with a 3-rung collapsible ladder. Plenty of room to clear the main engine. Through-bolted on top and lagged on bottom. I love this particular ladder - no rattling and easy to deploy and store. Will balance out the kicker a little bit. With the 100+ pounds added on the bow with the anchor roller, I'm not worried about a bit of additional weight on the transom.
The exterior outfitting of the boat is now complete - just some inside storage to add, which will be on-going next year.
That's it for the year, boat is tarped off and I'm prepping for other adventures. Looking forward to April!
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Dan- What size and type of tabs did you go with?
Ken
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Ken, I went with the Lenco 9" x 18" standard mount kit, part # 15002-101. I'm very happy with them. You could go as small as 12" wide, but I think 18" wide is just about right, at least for my 28. I see no reason to go hydraulic at all and know a couple people with the Lencos and they have held up well.
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Can you explain more on those lexan 'awnings'? They don't look hinged, so I assume you attach them when needed?
On those wires going through the bulkhead, I'd recommend either lining the perimeter of the hole with non-abrasive plastic or would tie-wrap and stabilize the wires so they don't rub on the pass-through hole - Like what is done on aircraft with wiring in hidden places such as inside fuel tanks. Just an FYI - and I'm sure you've already been thinking about it.
Anyway ... as always, your boat is perfection incarnate!
Brian
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Brian, the lexan fits in between the roof and the aluminum L, then I run the thumbscrews up, and they're in. To take them out, undo the thumbscrews, pull the lexan out, dry thoroughly, and store under a bunk mattress, then run the thumbscrews back up snug so they don't rattle out. Being flat and about 1/8" thick, the lexan sheets store easily.
And yes, now that the wiring is done, tying and anchoring the wire bundle is on the list before the next trip, you're absolutely right.
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That swim platform is awesome!
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Dan- What size and type of tabs did you go with?
Ken
My boat is slower and they spec a 24x9. I am planning to go with electric but still vacillating between Lenco, Bolt and Electrotab.
Ken
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That swim platform is awesome!
Yes ... the most fantastic and detailed setup I've seen yet, and all bristol work! (I like that word ... bristol, very marine, very nice, very Alaska :D :D. I like yeoman, as in "yeoman's work" :D )
bd
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Well, the swim platform is off the shelf, nothing custom or fancy about it, except ordering the platform separate from the stairs so I could get the 3-step stairs that store nicely. Will be nice for getting in/out of the dinghy. But honestly I could have had one fabbed from aluminum that would have been really cool, but the cost and weight start to add up. With a little bit of work, I bet you could glass one up and make it functional and light and look super cool.
The trim tab manufacturers want you to get a much larger tab than you need. Our boats have less deadrise than many boats, and weight a LOT less, so we don't really need what they specify. Also, keep in mind that their sizing is based on being able to trim the nose of the boat down, which is not what the GA needs, at least in my case - I only need to trim to keep from listing. I think 9x18 is perfect. It sure works well at least. Plus, there is not enough room for a 24" tab and a transducer, so keep that in mind!
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I worked hard to make sure the Great Alaskan planed at exactly the right angle ... about 4.1 degrees bow up. Commercial boats are rarely optimized to that degree (pardon the pun) unless it's a) an expensive boat, and b) it's been on the market for a long time and has been fine-tuned over the years. I'm very pleased with the GA planing angle ... exactly as predicted with the marine modeling software (Orca3D (https://orca3d.com/)).
Brian
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Dan- Good input on the tabs. Unfortunately I ordered the 24x9 BOLTS last night. I spoke to 3 different tab companies and they all advised me to go with that size. I can just squeeze them in between the chine and the transom. My boat doesn’t seem to be crying out for trim tabs so your logic is probably correct. If they prove to be to large cutting them down looks like a possibilty
Ken
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I also ordered the 9x24 tabs, and just was not at all happy with them, so sent them back for the 18" version, no problems, no questions asked.
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Dan- Why were you unhappy with them?
Ken
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They're just way too wide - they look weird, and most importantly did not leave enough room for my transom-mounted transducer. The transom looked very crowded when I mocked them up to take a look.
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They're just way too wide - they look weird, and most importantly did not leave enough room for my transom-mounted transducer. The transom looked very crowded when I mocked them up to take a look.
I think you are right about the manufacturer's guidelines .... OK for a big fat heavy glass boat, but you should downsize for lighter construction like the Great Alaskan. Mostly, I suspect people use the tabs to correct port/starboard loading differences, not planing trim. I have gotten zero feedback from people hinting about planing trim needing tuning .... even in choppy conditions where a bit of bow-down trim sometimes helps. Anyone?
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Brian, we tried trimming the bow down with the tabs in a tight 4' chop and I feel like the handling got muddy - I was more comfortable without the tabs engaged.
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Brian, we tried trimming the bow down with the tabs in a tight 4' chop and I feel like the handling got muddy - I was more comfortable without the tabs engaged.
Thanks. If I read that right, it's confirmation of not needing bow trim ... but there are always conditions out there that will bug one boat and not another. I'm just glad that the modeling appears to be confirmed by reality (at $3k for the Orca s/w, I would hope so!)
bd
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That's correct Brian, I think your bow trim is pretty spot on, from what I've seen of other boats and my limited experience.
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That's correct Brian, I think your bow trim is pretty spot on, from what I've seen of other boats and my limited experience.
:D :D :D
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Finally warm enough outside to work on my aft fuel vent problem (fuel coming out the vent when filling, suspect vent fitting too close to fill fitting on tank). Cut the deck open carefully and found out the vent fitting was indeed jammed up right against the fill fitting. A buddy and I purged the tank with an argon/CO2 mixture (it could have been pure argon or CO2, the mixture is just what he had in his shop) for about 30 minutes until the fuel smell went away first. Then we drilled for the new vent fitting with a pneumatic drill, set the fitting, and plugged the old vent with a piece of 5/8" solid aluminum rod. The project went smoothly, and I just put gas in the tank and the new vent works perfectly. So this culminates all my rants about keeping the fuel fill and vent fittings at least 6" away from each other when you design a custom tank!
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Also recently reworked my anchoring system. The original hinged anchor roller was meant for hand-pulling the winch, and does not work well at all with the new anchor winch, so I tore it off and replaced it with a non-pivoting anchor roller and devised a way to get the flat roller back off the gunnel. This setup is awesome. There is plenty of room to stand in the anchor well, the winch has a remote that works very well, and it all fits very well up there. I have 550 ft of 1/4" dyneema, 85 ft of 3/8" double braid nylon (shock absorption), and 40 ft of 5/16" chain with a 22 lb claw. That will allow me to easily anchor in 250 ft of water while halibut fishing. I highly recommend these winches! Mine is an EZ Anchor Puller EZ-4. They're very popular here in Alaska.
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Finally warm enough outside to work on my aft fuel vent problem (fuel coming out the vent when filling, suspect vent fitting too close to fill fitting on tank). Cut the deck open carefully and found out the vent fitting was indeed jammed up right against the fill fitting. A buddy and I purged the tank with an argon/CO2 mixture (it could have been pure argon or CO2, the mixture is just what he had in his shop) for about 30 minutes until the fuel smell went away first. Then we drilled for the new vent fitting with a pneumatic drill, set the fitting, and plugged the old vent with a piece of 5/8" solid aluminum rod. The project went smoothly, and I just put gas in the tank and the new vent works perfectly. So this culminates all my rants about keeping the fuel fill and vent fittings at least 6" away from each other when you design a custom tank!
Looks like the double-wide clamp on the fill is supposed to be in place of double clamping? No double clamps on the vent(s)? :D Sorry man ... the setup looks great and I'm glad that moving the vent confirmed your suspicions and that it's all fixed now.
bd
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Looks great Dan! Question about that winch - do you go to the bow and tie off when you are breaking out your anchor? I have seen mixed info about if that's necessary using an EZ puller, would love to hear your experience using it and if you have found that necessary or not. Also, what kind of roller are you using?
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Love that winch!
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Brian, your questions about the clamps are totally valid. Two clamps are better than one, especially when you plan to bury them below deck. What you can't see in the photo is that both hoses are sealed into the fore/aft bulkhead just a few inches away from the tank connections, so there's zero stress on these connections, and absolutely nowhere for the hoses to go. Even unclamped, all the vibration in the world could not get the hoses to come off the fittings, so the only purpose the clamps have is to provide a good seal. It's a very good situation.
The new vent fitting, to my surprise, has a short hose barb, with only enough room for one clamp - so nothing I can do there anyway. And yes, the fill clamp is a beefy one I used in my water/sewer days that survived freeze/thaw, 140 degree temperature swings, and I am completely confident it's not going anywhere.
Please put some blurb about putting the fill and vent 6" apart or further on custom tanks so others can avoid this whole thing!
The boat is approaching completion, and I'm very happy.
Thanks -
Dan
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Brian, your questions about the clamps are totally valid. Two clamps are better than one, especially when you plan to bury them below deck. What you can't see in the photo is that both hoses are sealed into the fore/aft bulkhead just a few inches away from the tank connections, so there's zero stress on these connections, and absolutely nowhere for the hoses to go. Even unclamped, all the vibration in the world could not get the hoses to come off the fittings, so the only purpose the clamps have is to provide a good seal. It's a very good situation.
The new vent fitting, to my surprise, has a short hose barb, with only enough room for one clamp - so nothing I can do there anyway. And yes, the fill clamp is a beefy one I used in my water/sewer days that survived freeze/thaw, 140 degree temperature swings, and I am completely confident it's not going anywhere.
Please put some blurb about putting the fill and vent 6" apart or further on custom tanks so others can avoid this whole thing!
The boat is approaching completion, and I'm very happy.
Thanks -
Dan
I trust your opinions and know already that you're a "do it right the first time" kind of guy. Your fuel tank advice is already in the Part 2 of 2 construction manual ... pretty close to verbatim (and the added section's got your name all over it :D ):
"7. Make darn sure your fuel fill and vents are at least 6" apart, and 8" or more is better. "
:)
Brian
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json -
There definitely IS conflicting information on whether you should cleat off the winch or not. When you're fishing for awhile on the anchor in calm seas, I can see just leaving the tension on the reel. Same if you're just anchoring for a short lunch break. In all cases, for breaking out the anchor, I highly recommend, as does the local supplier I bought it from, that you cleat it off first.
Also, when I'm setting the hook for the night, you bet I'm going to cleat it off. We're all calling it a winch, but it's better called an "anchor retrieval device", and I'm sure it would be best if used as such, rather than trying to milk more out of it and have a problem.
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Thanks Dan, makes sense... Nice job on the boat, glad to have all of your experience to draw on.
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Dan,
I have a question about the Wallace heater ducting, I looked at your pictures but not sure if you put defrosters at the windshield if so did you step down to 2.5" or have pics?
Rbob
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I'm glad you asked this question. Im interested in doing the same thing
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I have had a problem with fuel coming out of the vent when I fill my tank. The vent is doing it’s job but it happens fast and no way to know when I am close to full. I just installed one of these and hope it works. My tank is very full at the moment and when the temperature goes up I get a weeping out of the vent. I don’t know if anything will prevent that except not filling so high.
https://www.westmarine.com/buy/attwood--fuel-vent-line-surge-protector--303851
Ken
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I did not put a defroster hose up to the windshield area - the guys in Seattle who rep Wallas, and REALLY know their stuff, recommended to keep the ducting to a minimum. They said that as long as there is heat into the cabin area, it typically keeps the windows defrosted. I have a 3" piped about halfway into the cuddy, a 3" terminating at the forward bulkhead of the port passenger seat cabinet, and a 2 1/2" going back to my wet gear locker. I have the vents that allow you to stick a butter knife or similar into them to close the duct on that run if not needed.
I agree that it would be very sweet to have defrost right up to the windows.....the only problem is that heat rises, and I like the idea of piping the heat to low places so it can rise, to keep moisture out of those areas. That said, a 2 1/2" to the window area would certainly work!
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Kennneee, please report to us how that fuel vent surge protector works out! Racor LG100, for more money, is another option, but so far, the only time fuel comes out my vent is when I'm filling and my tank fills up, then I get just a tiny little dribble and I'm done. Ultimately I'd love to mount the fuel vents higher than the fuel fills to avoid this altogether, but that's a project for a distant day. If this little unit works, it's a fairly simple solution.
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What about the whistler fittings that are in the vent hose right at the tank? I thought about using these. Give you a few feet of warning I expect.
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Todd, I've read that those whistlers can get very loud, and whistle the whole time you're fueling, changing pitch as the tank fills up. Other than that I am pretty ignorant of them. I just got a new boat mechanical book in today, and it details the Racor LG100, which looks perfect to me, other than being quite large. Racor makes an LG50 for gas only that looks much more reasonably sized. I think I can fit the LG50 right into my existing vent lines. They're a little spendy, but with their ball check valve that will not allow fuel out when filling, it looks like exactly what we're all looking for.
BTW, the new book is "Boat Mechanical Systems Handbook" by Dave Gerr. It's not nearly as useful as Calder's book for us, but I've only glanced at a few select sections and have already come up with some useful ideas, which as you know, are hard to come by.
Another good book I just got in, recently updated in 2019, is "Happy Hooking - the Art of Anchoring" by Alex and Daria Blackwell. Excellent information about everything to do with anchor systems. Lots of useful information here.
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Kennneee, please report to us how that fuel vent surge protector works out! Racor LG100, for more money, is another option, but so far, the only time fuel comes out my vent is when I'm filling and my tank fills up, then I get just a tiny little dribble and I'm done. Ultimately I'd love to mount the fuel vents higher than the fuel fills to avoid this altogether, but that's a project for a distant day. If this little unit works, it's a fairly simple solution.
I will put Rosie back in the water a a couple of weeks and will know more then. The Racor might be a better option as this one allows fuel to dribble out when the temperature climbs. It may prevent a surge which is half the battle but not a complete solution. I would be interested to know how the Racor compares.
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I found this article which describes testing different venting/anti spill devices.
https://www.boatus.org/findings/40/
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The Attwood surge protector doesn’t stop fuel from weeping out of the vent when the tank is very full and the temperature climbs. I will find out soon if it works as I fill the tank. In either case, I want to stop dealing with fuel coming our of the vent and making a mess. I cobbled some things together today and made a cover for the vent that will collect the fuel as it come out. Davis sold a device at one time that mounted over the vent and was secured with suction cups. It had a bottle connected to it to collect the fuel. I believe it has been discontinued (liability?). What I made today should accomplish the same thing. I need to find a better collection container but this ice cream container should work. I believe it had mint chocolate chip which I think is the best option if you are searching for a similar container :).
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Completed the bilge blower installation and I'm VERY happy with it. My main objective was to remove gasoline fumes from the bilge area before I do any work in the aft bilge (it gives me a headache to work in there right now), and to be able to move a little bit of air through the entire length of the bilge to air it out occasionally. Some points:
1. The West Marine 3" blower is a re-branded Atwood as far as I can tell, for $30, $12 less than the Atwood. These blowers will reportedly only last for ~ 300 hours, but that's a lot of run time for something I plan to use infrequently. The airflow and noise levels are both very satisfactory.
2. With the 3" duct elbow pointed 45 degrees up to port side, and protected by a vent hood, even if a wave crashes into the engine well, very little water should run into the ducting, and if it does, it will run right past the motor and simply enter the bilge. No big deal, and this would be a very rare occurrence.
3. It draws 2.3 amps, 0.6A less than advertised. That said my ducting run is stupid short - just enough to get the blower to about the top of the stringer level.
4. I was VERY happy to note a small, but certain, amount of air being sucked into the forward bilge compartment in the cabin with the blower on, so indeed, even with only 1" limber holes through the various bulkheads of the bilge, a small bit of air is moving. I still would recommend future builders use larger limber holes in the bilge to let more air through - there's no reason not to.
Looking through my remaining to-do list, this is the last electrical installation, so now I can finally secure the main wiring bundle and install protection over it in a few places. THAT makes me very happy :)
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Great news, Dan, and good idea on bigger limbers. Main idea on the 15/16" holes was so they could be plugged with a standard transom plug, but if made larger and designed to fit a plastic pipe-test plug (see Home Depot and buy stainless replacement nut/bolt), then you can still plug them up.
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Been wanting to share my fastener storage solution, it has made a huge difference in my organization and efficiency installing electronics, electrical, etc. Get some Plano 3620 tackle organizers and put in a bunch of the dividers. I find the lid closure plenty secure and the box adequately strong/durable for this use. Perfect for electrical end terminals too.
When I'm anchoring main wiring runs with lots of wires, I prefer to avoid zip ties because you're always cutting them off and having to re-install them which is wasteful and a royal hassle, and I also prefer to avoid long conduits because small wires don't pull through them well and thus another type of hassle is created. My solution this time around was to cut 1.5" wide sections of 3" PVC that had one quarter of its section ripped out. Fastened up into the bottom of the gunnels, with them up against the hull and they are very stable, provide plenty support to the wiring, and are super convenient to use. Fussy to make, but I was not finding a better option this time around.
Came up with an elegant way to accommodate different widths of jars, etc. in the galley spice rack as shown in the photo.
Finally, I found a slick solution for hanging towels, etc in the galley by replacing the acorn nuts on the roof rail bolts with eye nuts, then stringing between the eye nuts. go2marine.com (basically online LFS) has them for a reasonable price....they can be stupid expensive at many places.
Very satisfying slowly getting these usability details solved - they make for a big difference on the water.
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As always ... outstanding detail and finish on your boat - It really makes owning and using the boat an even more pleasurable experience :D
Thanks for sharing!!
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Got very tired of starting out with clean windows, then ending up on the water after towing with filthy windows. Plus the possibility of kicking up a rock and breaking a window. So had Fine Line in Anchorage make up a window cover for me. Like most other things to do with boats, they've done a bunch of these and knew exactly what to do. Sunbrella on the outside, padded, with a softer material on the inside, fits like a glove. $250 well spent, and I will end up with clean windows when I hit the water!
I like it so much I am going to have them make a cover for the whole bow of the boat, to protect the paint from rock chips and also help keep it halfway clean while towing. I take the boat to homer, which is a 4 hour drive, so towing damage is an issue to be dealt with.
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That is super cool!
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You never fail to amaze me with all your well thought out fine details.... :D :D :D
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I’m going to need one of those. Nice
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Just got back from a 5-day fishing, shrimping, camping, testing-the-boat-out-trip through northern Prince William Sound. All the small outfitting touches paid big rewards. That said, without a doubt the most appreciated item is the anchor winch, and my new Rocna Vulcan anchor. The winch makes anchoring up easy, convenient, and something that I will do frequently, rather than a task I dread. The Vulcan hooks up maybe even faster than the Bruce style claw I've always used in the past, and most definitely has better holding power. Strongly recommended. Love the 40 ft of 5/16" chain.
One of the few disadvantages of a stitch-n-glue boat is the inability to navigate through ice, which I find would be useful in a few of my Alaskan trips. Would be very curious on a future build to incorporate a skin of 1/8" aluminum to the hull.
Spent a lot of time using the autopilot and running back to analyze the depth of the anti-cavitation plate in the water column, suspecting my engine is mounted too low. Noticed a pretty big difference with a full vs empty rear fuel tank and whether or not I had shrimp gear back there. Leads me back to having a hydraulic jack plate for the engine, so I could adjust engine height depending on load. A light trip like this one is a different thing entirely from a deer hunting trip with 2 friends in October.....and I think there is quite a bit of fuel efficiency to be gained, so am considering ripping off the engine and installing the plate.....
Here is a deck view just after pulling shrimp pots, with pots all baited and ready to toss back in. Storing the boat hook in spring-clips just starboard of the door works awesome, as does storing the fish whacker on the port "wing" just aft of the cabin. Probably going to mount a couple more spring-clips for the deck brush, which sees a lot of use.
And a glamour shot to inspire current builders.
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Awesome feedback and I agree on hydraulic jack plates. A short (close to the transom) hydraulic jack plate is my favorite way to mount an outboard on these.
So ... I see ZERO pictures of shrimp or dead fish ... were you merciful and let them all swim, unmolested, for next time? :D
bd
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Dan,
At rest your boat sits in the water perfectly, very clean arrangement on the back deck and spring clip is a great idea for storage of those useful frequently used items.
Oh, the scenery is second to none!
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Nice, nice nice! I love the idea of a jack plate. I’m considering one myself and I’m not even in the water yet
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Put the jack plate on there now. Waiting until after you've already mounted it will just create a whole lot more work.
I agree the boat sits and runs in the water very nicely. Credit Brian's design for that. Along with BayWeld aluminum boats and Ocean Sport fiberglass boats, I think the GA is one of the best hulls on the water....and bring lots of money to get into those other two....
Brian, I can assure you I'm not running a catch and release operation. Since this is a build thread I've avoided posting pics of the harvest, but since you insist, I'll spot you a 75 lb halibut, a bunch of young bull kelp (delicious!), a yelloweye, a grey (or pacific) cod, and lots of spot prawns!
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NOW we're cookin' with gas! Catch pix are NEVER out of place around here!
Looks like a p-cod to me ....
What do you do with the kelp? Never heard of harvesting it ... put it in smoothies for all those trace minerals and sea-nutrition?
THANKS FOR THE PIX, DAN!!
Brian
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As you can see I dry the kelp first, then use the leaves crumbled into soups right when you serve it, or on top of a stir fry or whatever. The stems can be rehydrated and used like pasta or pickled, which is turning into quite a large cottage industry up here - pickled bull kelp is a big seller. I also harvest a few other kinds of kelp and greens that grow on the beach, all delicious. Learning more as I go!
Yeah, pacific cod...but most people up here call them grey cod.
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As you can see I dry the kelp first, then use the leaves crumbled into soups right when you serve it, or on top of a stir fry or whatever. The stems can be rehydrated and used like pasta or pickled, which is turning into quite a large cottage industry up here - pickled bull kelp is a big seller. I also harvest a few other kinds of kelp and greens that grow on the beach, all delicious. Learning more as I go!
Yeah, pacific cod...but most people up here call them grey cod.
Well ... I'll gather some the next time we head over to the Oregon coast ... :D
Brian
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Great pics Dan, thank you!
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I was told by my Dr. to avoid all kelp and seaweed products because they are very high in Vitamin K and I am on blood thinners. The Japanese dish Nori is especially taboo for me. Enjoy, but don’t offer too much to your elders who have medical issues.
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Blood thinner? Awe, the golden years...
I see bull kelp when fishing usually, going to give it a try. Vitamin K foods are among "very good for you" foods. I am not a doctor but I have watched doctor shows... A sprinkle of seaweed as a seasoning should not cause concern if on blood thinner but eating an entire meal of bull kelp might.
Nice Halibut!
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In your spare time look up “INR” testing. A cup of kale makes big changes in an INR level; a 1/4 of kelp would make a huge change. Just sayin... after getting deathly ill, I watch parts of my diet very closely.
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Guys, please. This is a build thread. Enough of the banter about other things. I really don't want that on this thread. That's half the reason I've been hesitant to post trip pix here. Let's stay focused.
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Guys, please. This is a build thread. Enough of the banter about other things. I really don't want that on this thread. That's half the reason I've been hesitant to post trip pix here. Let's stay focused.
Agree ... Very interesting stuff. A) I would not avoid posting trip pix! B) We have an off-topic area for things like the above. And c) A little diversion here and there won't hurt either ... it's our forum. We can flex a little and at the same time respect all parties.
Brian
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Agreed,
Back to boats!
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Well, I'm dragging my feet on the jack plate addition. I found a Seastar 4" plate in town, the exact one I wanted. Had enough scrap lumber and fasteners to make a frame to hang my engine from using a quality 1 ton come-a-long I had. Took several hours of scheming and finally a 5-ft digging bar to pop the engine free because the engine shop used 5200 to seal the holes. Tore a small chunk out of the transom that I had to patch up. Stupid to use 5200 for this application. When I put it back on I'll use either LifeCaulk or butyl tape.
Anyway, I was surprised to see the jack plate weighs 53 pounds. Heavy! Plus, whoever designed it needs a bozo award. If you use the same holes, which are in a very standard location resulting in the engine's anti-cavitation plate even with the keel of the boat, at its lowest setting, the engine's anti-cavitation plate will be lifted 2 5/8" higher than the keel, and you can only go UP from there! So to use this plate, I would need to drill a new set of holes, and I can only go down about 3" before I run off the aluminum backer plates I have and start getting into other headaches. I would have wanted to mount it such that at mid-height the anti-cav plate is even with the keel so I could adjust up or down from there. Down in heavy seas and slow speeds, up for light load and glass and 26 knot cruise.
Fully tempted to just mount it 2 holes higher and go test it. Save the $1300 and keep things simple. Now that I'm all set up, I could change the engine height pretty easily here at the house until I get it right where it is optimum for "normal" conditions and forego the ability to change engine height for light or heavy loads. I really like the idea of all the adjustability, but I don't like the idea of 53 extra pounds hanging on the back of the boat. Maybe find a jack plate that will work with the existing holes.......
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The stern on your 28-footer will handle the 53# just fine. This is why I tell people that boats are like wives ... the stern gets heavier over time :)
Personally, I'd patch it up and fill the original holes with epoxy, make a new aluminum plate if you need to and drill the holes in the best and most optimal spot .. hang everything and go fishing. If it makes you feel any better, I went through a very similar series of disappointments with a Bob's Machine bracket, and in the end, the bracket got in the way of the steering gear and had to be discarded. Sux, but then you move on ... blue skies, blue seas .... what problems? I see no problems! The SeaStar jack plate was probably optimized for a big fat deep-V fiberglass float-tel that creates a huge wake ...
Yes, brackets/jack plates are heavy. Most are rated for 300 hp ... that's a lot of beef! But that's why they're well built. Just be glad you didn't go all silly and put a 24" bracket on the boat (yes, someone did that!).
Yes on LifeCaulk - it's the #1 choice for hardware (above the waterline and not necessarily permanent) nowadays.
bd
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I'm all patched up and put the 1st coat of paint on this morning. Doing more research. It appears that all manufacturers have this mounting scheme so maybe I'll just bolt it on there and see how it goes. I'm seeing engines raised surprisingly far out of the water so maybe there's something to all of this.
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Realizing even further that with the downward angle of the transom and the upward angle of the water column out the back of the boat, I'll gain about an inch there, so will only be off 1 5/8", which is just about 2 holes worth anyway. Leaning toward bolting the bracket on there and seeing how it goes. Hoping the engine was WAY too deep. 2nd coat of paint on the transom, will probably let that cure up real well and mount later this weekend. Plenty to do with the wiring and other things until then anyway.
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Realizing even further that with the downward angle of the transom and the upward angle of the water column out the back of the boat, I'll gain about an inch there, so will only be off 1 5/8", which is just about 2 holes worth anyway. Leaning toward bolting the bracket on there and seeing how it goes. Hoping the engine was WAY too deep. 2nd coat of paint on the transom, will probably let that cure up real well and mount later this weekend. Plenty to do with the wiring and other things until then anyway.
All good ... just make sure that you're getting cooling water when you try it out - it'll be fine until you get on plane. I expect you'll get cavitation at about the same time though. If you get that far, it's the WOT wake that you want to tune height for ... it rises from a point further behind the boat than when planing slower. The modest deadrise and long straight run of the Great Alaskan's hull produces a smooth wake that doesn't rise much behind the boat. I'm sure you'll let me know, but I suspect you'll need to lower that bracket.
bd
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Just boxed up the SeaStar jack plate in preparation for returning it. They need to go back to the drawing board. I even called my engine mechanic and he said he looked at them but had difficulty accessing the mounting bolts, which is what foiled me. It's set up to put the bolt through the jack plate and then through the transom, putting the nut on inside the transom. Thing is, the bolt length I needed to get through our thick transoms was such that you can't get the bolt into the plate. I tried putting the bolt through the other way and using the nut on the jack plate side, but awkward and you end up messing up the sealant (you have to turn the bolt, you can't really turn the nut). My engine mechanic really likes the TH Marine Atlas jack plates. He said they are the best out there if I really want to go that route. Easy to install and work well and he's had no problems/returns with them.
In the end, I'm relieved. I'm happy to move the engine up a couple holes, save the $1300, save the additional almost 60 pounds worth of gear, and save having one more adjustment to fuss with and to go wrong. What I really want is the engine set up to cruise well in the mid-20 knot range when I have an average load on the boat, and that will be good enough. I'll test this and tweak up/down until I'm happy, erring a hair on the conservative side (engine perhaps a hair lower than optimal), then forget it. I still bet my fuel efficiency is going to increase a bit. I'm trying to extend the range of my 120 gallons of usable fuel as much as possible, then I'll start planning some one-way outer coast trips.
If you're still in the middle of your build, I would strongly consider the Atlas plates, or even a quality hand-crank type of plate, or just plan on moving up/down a couple holes the first season. I'm out of patience for this right in the middle of my prime season, so moving onward, for now.
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Well ... that's what most people in Alaska and the Pacific Northwest do. Set it up to be the highest it can be for average planing conditions, then drop it a hole. .. more or less cav plate submerged by 3/4". Renn put a hydraulic jack plate on his Jumbo and experimented ... trying to max his efficiency / mileage. His conclusion is that the jack plate didn't help much - immeasurable difference in mileage, if any. But what he DID say was that having a hydraulic jack plate was super hand for when you get grounded on a bar ... raise the motor as far as possible and motor off the bar while passengers push! Been there, done that, and it doesn't take much of a grounding to be stuck pretty good. If it were me? I'd buy a hydraulic jack plate, be glad to have it, and just get a short one that keeps the outboard close to the transom. Just my personal opinion ... 99% of the people with Great Alaskans go without a jack plate. Getting stuck once might change your mind.
Brian
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Just finished re-mounting the engine and the learning continued. I waited 2 days for the paint to get decently dry after patching the transom up. This was a case of "good enough" for finish since nobody will see anything under the engine mount. While the paint was drying I did more research and found one article and one video that were very informative about how to set the height of your outboard.
Starting around 3:30 in this video, these installers at a high-volume shop talk about engine height very clearly:
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=N_EMx9WwTlY (https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=N_EMx9WwTlY)
This article also has some very useful info:
https://www.boats.com/how-to/the-outboard-expert-boost-speed-with-outboard-engine-height-adjustments/ (https://www.boats.com/how-to/the-outboard-expert-boost-speed-with-outboard-engine-height-adjustments/)
My Suzuki 250 has its water intakes ~ 6" below the anti-cavitation plate, so there should be no worry about getting cooling water.
Basically, the article and video and other sources I consulted agree that the engine's anti-cav plate should be level with the bottom of the boat or an inch or two higher. What I found is that my engine shop set the anti-cav plate even with the bottom of the 3/4" thick UHMW keel strip of my boat, rather than the actual flat portion of the bottom panels. Going up only one hole still left the anti-cav plate lower than the boat bottom, so I went up 2 holes and ended up 5/8" higher than the bottom of the boat, which seems like a good starting point for my tests. With the engine trimmed so the anti-cav plate is parallel with the boat bottom, the front of the prop is 22 1/2" from the transom, and I have to think that the water flowing past the transom will rise at least 5/8" in almost 2 ft.
Heading to Homer again this coming week for more solar installations, so will be able to give it a thorough test. I have a feeling I will not have to trim the engine all the way down as I had to before, and that I'm going to get much closer to 6100 rpm at full throttle, which means I can go with a higher pitch prop (sweet spot on rpm is 5700-5800 rpm), which means more efficiency. It's going to be interesting!
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I hadn't seen the first link (video), but have seen the second. Most Great Alaskans will need the 'normal' height since they are not a speed boat, often need 'grunt' at slow speeds to respond to the seas, e.g. turn hard and fast into an incoming wave, yet ... still have a need to run fast when conditions allow. I'm looking forward to hearing your results with the 5/8"-high setting ... might not be a bad idea since most fishing/camping boats get heavy in the stern when loaded for a trip and when people are fishing etc.
Brian
PS: Your paint job looks great from here ... :D
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I've only had the boat out once since raising my engine up 2 holes, in a mixed-up 4-ft sea, so was unable to do any proper testing. However, having a buddy run the helm, I ran back and eyeballed the anti-cav plate's position relative to the water, and with a wide range of engine trim and on-plane speeds, the anti-cav plate was always just out of the water. There was a lot less random spray in the area, and it always had a full stream of cooling water and the engine ran cool. So for my build, 2 holes up on the outboard is looking spot-on. More tests when I get a calmer sea to operate in.
On another note, I've done the 4+ hour one-way drive between Anchorage and Homer 4 times now, and my 4Runner with a 7000 lb towing capacity continues to impress me. Up over 2 minor passes, speeds up to 70mph, and the 4Runner runs smooth, having to run at 4200 rpm on the strong pulls, but usually running between 2-3000 rpm and staying cool. So my goal of building light enough to be able to use my existing tow vehicle appears to have worked. Brakes on both axles of the trailer is helpful and comforting.
Finally, there has been some banter about mounting various battery chargers in the bilge compartment, as I have done with my Sterling battery-to-battery charger. I've advised a few people to move their non-ignition-protected devices out of that compartment. The Sterling IS ignition-protected, as is the Blue Seas battery switch I also have in there, so my installation is safe. Very few, if any, of the other manufacturer's charging solutions are ignition-protected, so that is something to look for. Gas fumes emitting from the fuel hoses WILL build up in the bilge, and anything mounted in there needs to be ignition-protected.
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If you get a chance take video of your engine running out. It would be nice to compare how my water flow compares to yours. I’ll do the same
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Dennis that's something I've been thinking of doing. Once I get the right conditions and a buddy or two on board I'll do just that.
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Finally finished the dinette bunk extension and boot storage in my wet gear locker, which is one of the most useful features of the boat for sure (way more useful than a head!). Warm air comes in from the bottom port forward corner of the locker, and vents out the upper starboard aft corner. Any water runs out the limber hole to the back deck. Just added these ABS boot trees. Since figuring out how to outfit these fussy details took a lot of my time while designing/building the boat, I'm posting lots of details for future builders. I have plans for a 16" tall by 18" wide by 8" deep "glove box" right above the cleat for the dinette bunk extension, and a smaller shelf immediately above the warm air duct to protect the duct and add to storage options. These 2 storage units will also hide the cable to the port V-berth light.
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So many nice touches. I’ve often wondered how you deal with your changes/additions to what appear to be a finished boat. They are well thought out
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Where's the flat screen TV and blueray player going to go? :D
Looks fabulous! Best wet locker I've seen!
bd
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Nice job on the dry locker. Great idea!
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Update on props, engine height, etc.:
I was able to do a proper rpm test with the 17 pitch prop - I was surprised to get the exact same rpm - 5750 - as before. However, the difference I can clearly see with the engine up 2 holes and the anti-cav plate just out of the water is that I can trim the engine to neutral trim, and I have slightly better mileage. Other than that, no change. Since my range of high rpms is 5500 to 6100, I'm going to order the same 19 pitch prop I had before, which had me down around 5550 - 5650 rpm last season. This prop will give me better cruising mileage. I'll keep the 17 pitch prop for heavy loads and as an on-board backup. 90% of the time I'm loaded fairly light so the high-pitch prop should be perfect.
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Good info - thanks, Dan.
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Finally made and installed my port side storage projects. Down low under the gunwale is a shelf/front that both protects the heat duct going to the cuddy and provides a nice storage pocket, and up high the two storage compartments are pretty obvious. The cherry brightwork really warms the cabin up. I will line them with the foam non-slip mat, and may eventually add a couple of dividers depending on how they end up getting used. I wanted to start super simple and see how the storage gets used. Wanted a simple, sleek look that shows off the wood. Now I have a place to run the cable to the port-side cuddy light, which is the next little finish project. Starting to feel really, truly finished!
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Here is the Red Fox (28 ft GA model) all loaded for a typical trip. Lots of things of use to current and future builders to be aware of that keen eyes will glean from the pic. In particular:
A very common 8' dinghy such as this West Marine PRU-3 fits nicely on the roof, but without any room for rod holders on the aft roof edge. I load the dinghy easily by myself up and over the aft roof edge so need this area clear. I often get on the roof and deploy the dinghy over the SB side, so have kept that side of the roof clear of antennas, rod holders, etc. Alaska is a "save yourself" place, so I consider a dinghy critical safety equipment, essentially a life raft in case of catastrophic boat failure, along with survival suits. The paddleboard is extra pure recreational fun.
With forward-facing windows and the long cabin (9'-7") between aft cuddy and aft cabin bulkheads and overhangs, my roofline is over 13 ft long. This allows plenty of room for the radar, lights, GPS antenna, etc. on the front edge of the cabin, followed by solar panels, followed by space for the dinghy. If the windows face back or the overhangs are reduced or the cabin length is reduced, you lose part or all of the space for solar panels. Convenient space for rod storage outside is an ongoing issue that I'm still fussing with.
Running only at optimal cruising speed of around 20-22 knots (3550-3600 rpm on my 250 outboard), or hull speed around 6-7 knots, with some idling while pulling shrimp pots and the anchor, on a 4-day, 169 NM trip, I got real-world 2.79 nmpg. The holy grail of 3+ nmpg is often referenced in these forums, but in real-world trips, I've never averaged anywhere close to that. I get up to 3.2 nmpg at times running with the current and/or wind, and in "test conditions" of slack tide, flat water, and no wind, I might get 3, but it's foolish to think these boats with gear and real-world ocean conditions will get that on an extended ocean trip. And mine is a foam-core cabin possibly the lightest GA built to-date.
If seas are rough fuel economy will suffer significantly. That said, I've yet to average less than about 2.2 - 2.4 nmpg, although I have yet to have to beat hard for hours into a face full of wind and 5+ ft seas either.
The boat is VERY tender. Pay strict attention to balancing SB/port weight during the build. I tend to list SB as typical, but not too bad since I put water, spare tools, and the heavy fishing tackle in port lockers. Start battery is on port side of transom locker. Trim tabs are essential equipment. They improve mileage up to 0.3 nmpg, and I have a heavy anchor winch up front with 40 ft of 5/8 chain. They also are invaluable for trimming port/sb while running.
Small things: I started with 5/8" dock lines, which quickly plugged up my 8" cleats. 3/8" double-braid dockline is way more than strong enough, still feels good in the hands, and does not plug the 8" cleats up at all, plus store easier. Lines are stored along with the fenders either side of the door (you can see one set on the port side of the door in the pics). A dedicated D-ring fixture 8-12" away from the cleats for the fender keeps the cleats clear for the dock line and improves efficiency at the dock. You learn these things when Whittier is your home port, a tight, busy, chaotic place that demands efficiency. To the port side of the door you'll see the large plastic cutting board, fastened to the bulkhead with SS threaded knobs - works slick for storing the board.
Yes, there are times when I look longingly at Bay Weld aluminum boats, which are beautifully-designed and crafted vessels, can easily run through the ice that we get up here and might be more durable in some ways, but I know that their published fuel consumption numbers are under ideal conditions and even these supremely well-designed vessels are getting nowhere near the mileage we get with the GA hulls. That Kodiak model is calling my name. Meanwhile, my current GA simply works nearly perfectly for my trips, and I rarely think much about the boat - which is the best compliment.
Have fun!
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Thanks, Dan ... great report! The mileage is still twice what you get with those fancy aluminum boats!
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Great real world info Dan, thanks for posting. I have been wondering for a while about the trim tabs, sounds like it's a good addition. What size tabs did you install?
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Great real world info Dan, thanks for posting. I have been wondering for a while about the trim tabs, sounds like it's a good addition. What size tabs did you install?
All great info. personally I decided to wait on the trim tabs to see how the hull operated with-out. Both my larger offshore factory fiberglass boats needed the trim tabs. So far I'm glad I waited on adding that option, my Kodiak doesn't seem to need them she runs great as is. Careful loading does help but to be honest I don't pay much attention to it.
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Yes, and regards to being 'tender', keep in mind that there are two types of heeling stability. The first is "initial stability" and refers to the first 6 to 10 degrees of heel or so - you want lower stability in this range. It allows moderate and light waters to go up and down the sides of the boat (when not on plane) without making the boat heel. Too stiff in this range is harder on both structure and people - snap rolling on every little wave gets tiresome. The second form of stability ranges from where initial stability ends and increases in stiffness with more degrees of heel. This is your safety margin that does make the boat heel with the water - to prevent larger water from coming in over the sides. The Transverse Metacentric Height (GMt), the technical measurement of stiffness, is actually a little on the high side for this boat, so no worries there. That said, the GMt lowers as the boat is loaded to higher displacements, which means a boat loaded heavy for a long trip and/or has hundreds of pounds of ice in it, will heel slightly easier from weights (people) moving around in the boat and will heel less as various seas climb up the sides of the boat (when off plane).
Oh, and most GAs do not use trim tabs ... just an FYI. Everyone's boat tends to be loaded differently, though, so it could be that some benefit from them...
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If you look back through this build thread, you'll see I opted for a Panther electric steering solution for my kicker. I could not use any kind of tie-bar/cable system because my kicker is too far horizontally back from the main engine. The Panther worked OK for a couple years. It was slow and a bit clunky but got the job done. Due to its fussiness I didn't use the kicker much. On my last trip, I finally decided to fire up the kicker just to give it an hour or so of use. Fired right up, but I had no steering. After some troubleshooting, I determined the steering mechanism was fried. Back home after tearing into it I verified that, so it lasted barely 3 seasons of light use due to saltwater corrosion. I decided to install hydraulic steering on the kicker with a pair of 3-way valves to select either main engine or kicker. Just completed that installation and I am completely satisfied. Should have done this to start with. The valves are in a convenient location yet out of the way, and now I can steer the kicker from the main helm without having the main engine flopping back and forth as it would with a tie bar. It's a huge upgrade and I'm sure I'll use the kicker a lot more now.
Got the Bay Star steering cylinder at LFS after a bit of study to get the right one. Got the valves, hose, fittings, and for $75, rented the fitting crimp tool at the local Parker store (Motion and Flow Control Products). The valves are 1/4" because 3/8" valves were not available (supply chain again) - this had me worried they would restrict the flow too much. There is a bit more resistance, but the system is still very smooth and I foresee no problem. In the process I took the time to clean up the clunky routing of the hoses to the main engine - the engine shop did a pretty average job. It was also nice to take the time to completely bleed the system with new oil. The system is now much tighter than the engine shop did it and now I have the setup and knowledge to keep it that way. Very satisfying project.
Photo 1: Overview of the hydraulic crimper, the cabinet where the 3-way valves are located.
Photo 2: Closeup of the crimper completing a crimp
Photo 3: How to purge air out of a hydraulic system. Suspend a bottle with bottom cut out, keep it at least ~ 1/4 full through the whole process, and return the fluid from the bleeder lines through a series of tees and inexpensive vinyl tubing. Remember to run your autopilot pump if you have one!
Photo 4: The line coming forward from the series of tees linking all the bleeder valves on both engines.
Photo 5: The 3-way valves are panel-mount versions so easily attached to a piece of aluminum I bent and secured to the top of the cabinet.
Photo 6: Main engine
Photo 7: Kicker on a hard port turn
Photo 8: Kicker on a hard SB turn
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Dan ... what're we looking at there? Call me ignernt...
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Brian took me a bit to resize photos and get the post together. Should all be there now.
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Awesome, thanks for all the details and additional photos ... lots of work, but better than watching TV. I've never seen a kicker with hydraulic steering (all my friends are as broke as me), let alone valves to let you pick which motor you're steering! It's really sweet...
Brian
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Wow, that's really cool... Clean too!
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I just put $100 down on a Sharrow prop.
https://www.sharrowmarine.com/ (https://www.sharrowmarine.com/)
Because I'm yearning to do trips like Seward to Homer or Cordova to Yakutat which are over 200 mile trips in a straight line with no chance to refuel, and crazy remote, the range of our boats is of primary importance to me. Given that I'd much rather poke around, fish, shrimp, explore etc. on the way, my estimated ultimate 320 mile real world range has me a bit nervous because this range goes down in wind, rough seas, against a current etc. and thus these trips would most likely be very pragmatic, rather than loose and enjoyable.
Look at the performance test of a 30ft Duckworth, which approximates our "ballpark" of boats:
https://www.sharrowmarine.com/performance-reports/2022/11/2/efav9gwj4vyfieolazvkx131nkl37z (https://www.sharrowmarine.com/performance-reports/2022/11/2/efav9gwj4vyfieolazvkx131nkl37z)
If I can get 15% better mileage/range at speeds of 16-24 knots, that's twice as much range as I can get putting 7.5 gal worth of jerry cans in the bow of my boat. If I can get 30% better it's a game-changer and the trip gets a lot less stressful, more fun, and if the weather goes to crap, I can gun it to get home ahead of a storm without fear of running out of gas.
I will report here later this spring when I get some performance reports!
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The Duckworth is a good average boat to compare to, so I think a fair comparison in terms of the improvements from the Sharrow props ... can't wait to hear your performance results. Looks like a better hole shot too ....
Brian
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I have had my eye on a sharrow prop for a few months, I can't wait to hear how it goes for you. What type of information did they want to make one for you? What's the estimated ETA?
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ETA is 90-120 days. They asked for my current prop info, engine info, boat info (had to write them an email and send pics about that!), RPM at first plane and cruising, speed, RPM at full throttle, etc. I'm very irritated that I was unable to find my performance test information which would have been of great use to them, so I had to give them some generalities about RPM/speed at cruise etc. I also gave them our 14 degree deadrise, approximate weight, stitch-n-glue construction, etc. I'll keep you all posted!
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ETA is 90-120 days. They asked for my current prop info, engine info, boat info (had to write them an email and send pics about that!), RPM at first plane and cruising, speed, RPM at full throttle, etc. I'm very irritated that I was unable to find my performance test information which would have been of great use to them, so I had to give them some generalities about RPM/speed at cruise etc. I also gave them our 14 degree deadrise, approximate weight, stitch-n-glue construction, etc. I'll keep you all posted!
Did you search the forums for your performance data? Seems like it's here somewhere ... probably with my missing sock
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I just went all through my posts and nothing. Same result looking through my boat's logbook and all my computer files. Weird and very irritating!
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Aren’t those props thousands of dollars?
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The prop is $5000.
If I can indeed get 15% or better whole-trip range improvement, it's worth it to me because it opens up trip possibilities that are unavailable to me now.
For simple math let's say 100 hours/season, current trip average 7 gal/hour, that's 700 gallons and let's say $4.50/gal gas. That's $3150/season.
If the prop is 15% more efficient, it would save me $410/season and pay for itself in 12 years. If 30% more efficient, 7 years.
So even though the payback is not why I'm buying it, if the performance numbers are as they are for other boats, it's very possible it will pay for itself in 5-10 years while opening up trip possibilities, performing quieter and with less vibration, getting up on plane at lower speeds, and handling better.
It's worth the risk for me to put the $100 down and have some conversations with their engineers at least. I'm excited!
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Dug the boat out, took the fenders off my Kokopelli trailer to make bleeding the brakes easier, and was surprised to see the inside of the front axle's tires worn, severely on the right side, shown. Obviously front axle is overloaded (makes axle bend down in a smile, resulting on increased wear on inside of tires). Reasons seem to be load is forward-heavy on axles or tongue is too low due to low hitch on tow vehicle. Anyway, wanted to post this here as a heads up to check your tires regularly, make sure the trailer is towing level, etc. The trailer tows like a dream, I've had no indication of anything wrong. And with the fenders on you have to make a special effort to inspect the tires which I had not done.
I can move the boat back on the trailer about 5" if I need to, but since my tongue weight is already just about 10%, I'm very inclined to think my tongue is just too low, forcing more weight on the front axle. We'll see.....bummer, I was all excited to get out crabbing!
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Bummer! I’ve been struggling with too much tongue weight. Your foam is surely paying you back in that regard. I’d like to shed 300 lbs up front.
Thanks for sharing the tire wear. I’ll be checking mine.
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Todd can your boat be moved back further on your trailer?
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What vehicle are you towing with? Do you have a specific setup for crabbing, a davit? thanks
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Todd can your boat be moved back further on your trailer?
It is moved back as far as it can go, the bow winch bracket/mount cannot move further aft. The trailer axles are moved as far forward as they can go. The new jack plate arrangement may help some.
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Usually when I see the inside wear like that, the trailer tows perfectly ... but the truck's hitch is too low. They say, ideally, that the trailer should be level when hooked up. I think a small amount down at the tongue is OK, but the front axle tires will wear a bit more ... at all costs, though, you never want the weight to be too far aft on the trailer ... jackknife risk!
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Tule Peak, I have the Discovery Bay pot puller that I use for shrimp and crab pots. It's perfect - enough power for up to 3 pots and 800 ft of line, yet relatively small and lightweight. The only step up from there that I think is worth it is an electrodyne and that's a pretty big beast that I don't need.
I'm towing with a 2004 4Runner, one of only a couple years they had a V8 and could tow 7000# and a complete and proper towing package.
Boat and trailer should be no more than 6500# when really loaded up and full of fuel. I'll run the boat across some scales to double check that as well.
It's hitch receiver is a bit low, and my first several tows I had a 2" drop hitch rigged up which certainly had the tongue too low.
I've since flipped that hitch over to its 3/4" rise position and it "looks" a lot better but I need to measure to be sure.
I also have a tongue weight scale so I'm going to find an empty level parking lot sometime soon, load the boat up as normal, and go do some measuring, weighing, and experimenting. I didn't realize there were so many tweaks to get right.
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I'm towing with a 2004 4Runner, one of only a couple years they had a V8 and could tow 7000# and a complete and proper towing package.
Boat and trailer should be no more than 6500# when really loaded up and full of fuel. I'll run the boat across some scales to double check that as well.
It's hitch receiver is a bit low, and my first several tows I had a 2" drop hitch rigged up which certainly had the tongue too low.
I've since flipped that hitch over to its 3/4" rise position and it "looks" a lot better but I need to measure to be sure.
I also have a tongue weight scale so I'm going to find an empty level parking lot sometime soon, load the boat up as normal, and go do some measuring, weighing, and experimenting. I didn't realize there were so many tweaks to get right.
Yeah, but once tuned, always tuned. I'd be curious to see what the boat+trailer weighs, disconnected from the truck and sitting on a tongue jack ... then how much the tongue weight is. Once balanced, then how level is the trailer when sitting on the hitch? Measure forward end of trailer frame to ground versus rear end of trailer frame to ground?
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I'll report my trailer/boat weight disconnected from the truck and all the rest when I get it done.
Since I have one badly worn tire, one fairly worn tire, and two still decent tires but they're all 5 years old....I've decided to start with all new tires to be on the safe side. So I'll get that done first. Then I'll run around town, get the thing weighed, find a flat lot and take the measurements, tongue weight etc.
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Once balanced, then how level is the trailer when sitting on the hitch?
Most smart phones have a level app and it works great, I use it on camp trailer. Place it on the frame of the trailer tongue, or use a 2' level, good enough.
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I do not plan to use a level, because that would require a perfectly level pad to park on, and I won't find that.
Easier, and more to the point I think, is to find a pad that is decently FLAT, and use a laser level to measure the height of the trailer frame at each axle and the hitch and have all those measurements be equal. The laser level can take into account any amount of the pad not being flat.
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Update on the Sharrow prop: the engineering team has selected a size and design and their wait list for manufacturing is 100 days, so I expect to get the prop in late June or early July. I'm super excited to try it out!
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Update on the Sharrow prop: the engineering team has selected a size and design and their wait list for manufacturing is 100 days, so I expect to get the prop in late June or early July. I'm super excited to try it out!
Can't wait to hear about it ... do they explain how they make it work better than other props, or is that too proprietary?
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Their website has some explanations - essentially eliminating "terminal" edges by having the looping design - this reduces cavitation, slip, noise, vibration etc. I haven't studied it thoroughly, my decision was based on the real-world performance reports from several boats, plus my design brain grogs the idea so that was good enough for me!
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One of the nagging problems I've had using my boat is that I cannot open the side windows while it's raining because the roof overhang is inadequate even in a perfect windless calm. This is surprisingly common among our size of boats. So after a couple of attempts and a lot of time spent testing a few options, I've finally arrived at something simple and elegant enough to actually be convenient. Keder awning track is through-bolted through the roof overhang, the cord was sewn into the Sunbrella awning at a local upholstery shop, and I fabricated the frame using 1/2" and 3/4" aluminum tubing. I crimped a piece of 5/16" stainless all-thread into the 1/2" tubing with my big electrical crimpers and filed/sanded it down afterward so it looks decent for the top stays. Already had the D-ring on the gunnel for tying my fender to.
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Well, unfortunately the prop Sharrow sent me is way too big for my engine. It contacts the prop torque trim tab on the anti-ventilation plate. I feel like they sent me someone else's prop because it's nowhere close. I'll call them tomorrow to get it sorted out. Sorry unable to report any news. I've been crazy busy the past month boat building and traveling, so the prop sat in my living room just killing me to try it out. Severely disappointing. Oh well, at least I trolled up a couple kings and a couple silvers and got about 5 gallons of shrimp. Plus, I finally did a decent job of doing a full performance test of my existing prop. I had about 100 gal of fuel, 4 bags of ice, pot puller plus all my other goodies, with food/water for 3 days and no passengers during the test (next time I'll do it with a passenger, recording this info at 30+ knots is nerve wracking!). Conditions were little wind/gentle breeze, a bit of current from the very last of an ebbing tide, and 6-12" light ripple/chop. I did the test going up the bay I was in, then repeated going back out the bay and averaged these in an attempt to negate the effects of wind/current. I'm showing all the results for completeness.
It should be noted that my cabin is a bit taller than most, to accomodate friends who are 6'4" tall, and I always run an 8 1/2 ft rubber dinghy on the roof, so the extra height adds drag and weight vs those who run without a dinghy and have lower cabin rooflines.
My engine wants WOT RPM to be between 5500-6100 rpm, and I'm right around 5600, which is perfect, since for cruising efficiency you want to be on the low end of the RPM range as long as you're careful about not goosing the throttle, which would put a lot of stress on the bearings/shaft, etc. I'm always easy on the throttle with zero interest in hole shot so no problem there. Prop is a Solas Rubex L3+ 3x16x19.
I love that I hit Brian's design max efficiency speed of around 19-22 knots between 3500 and 4000 rpm, which is the sweet spot of most outboard engines, so this prop is about as good as I can get, and the 250 seems perfectly matched power wise to my particular boat and its configuration.
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Thanks Dan for the excellent real world data about your boat performance. I am bummed the Sharrow prop did not fit. I am waiting for your experience before I buy 2 of them to see if I can improve my 1.7 NM per gallon fuel usage. Hopefully Sharrow will send you a replacement ASAP.
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Sharrow got back to me first thing this morning, explaining that I indeed DO have the intended prop, but that they will have to send me a flush trim tab (never heard of or seen such a thing) for my anti-cavitation plate so their prop will clear. Their prop is a 15.5x18, so diameter-wise it is fine, it's just 3 5/16" longer as measured along the shaft. The thrust washer and hub sleeve fit very nicely so hopefully the flush trim tab will get me up and running quickly. Super disappointed they failed to foresee that ahead of time since it's nowhere close, but I'm glad it looks like a quick fix. I will report when I have the new trim tab!
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The boondoggle with Sharrow props continues. They claim that fin-type trim tabs are "rare these days" whereas every Yamaha and Suzuki outboard between 150-300HP I've worked on recently have fin-type trim tabs, so I encouraged them to specifically ask about this in the future to prevent this very preventable mishap. For $5k I expect better. Hopefully once I get the new flush trim tab I can get it tested quickly.
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That's tough, at least it sounds like they are doing their best to get you up and running though. I agree that for $5k they should probably be more familiar with what's out there, aren't they pretty early stage still though, like still making props individually to fill orders? In any case, thought I would include a picture of mine, which is flush and came on a 2021 f300, only because I saw someone talking about adjusting it to correct prop steer at some point earlier and it popped in my head when I read this... Either way, hope you get it straightened out soon, I want to see some real world data on that prop!
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Json, thanks for the pic! Dang, that "fin" is tiny, hard to believe it does much for prop torque but yeah, that would solve the problem!
They started R&D in 2012 and have been in production for a couple years, so I'm sure they're struggling to keep up with demand. Took 4 months to get my prop. I know a lot of folks are salivating to see how it performs on our lighter boats so I'm trying to get this sorted and the info out asap!
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Just some general statements ... Good to see the design efficiency point is verified by your data ... 19-22 kts, but actually runs pretty flat on the efficiency clear up to 26 kts or so with your boat. Second, keep in mind that we're working the miraculous here ... A planing hull should have it's CG 60-65% aft of the (at rest) waterline, which means planing hulls are a teeter-totter with 2/3rds of the boat is ahead of the CG ... pretty dang tough, especially in a boat designed to be half the weight of commercially-built glass or aluminum tubs, to keep the CG in that window while outfitting the boat as a live-aboard. This is why live-aboards are generally never a planing hull, but are fore/aft balanced displacement hulls. As stated, it's somewhat miraculous that the Great Alaskan can be outfitted so completely yet still remain a high-speed planing hull. Much of that success comes from the monohedron (amidships deadrise very close to the aft deadrise) hull form that this boat uses. Someday I'm gonna write a white paper on all this. In any case, I'm amazed at what people are able to do with this boat design.
Also, when it comes to efficiency, the #1 factor is weight ... aka 'displacement'. The lighter the boat, regardless of hull design, the higher efficiency that boat will have. The same thing applies to the Great Alaskan. Those that have outfitted the boat heavily are of course going to get lower efficiency than the day-tripper folks. All of the highly-outfitted Great Alaskans that I have seen have very good trim considering all that's been done with the boat in their cases, and they still get much higher mileage than their commercial equivalent. For example, Lindy's boat is probably the most-outfitted one on the water and includes a lot of beautiful cabinetry, yet has achieved an impressive trim and efficiency that is still about double what the glass/aluminum tubs get. I expect the Sharrow prop will be a good choice for those that have more live-aboard accommodations. For those in the planning stages and are building a live-aboard set of accommodations, keeping the CG aft will help efficiency as well - you can move the pilot house a little aft (longer cuddy), raise the cockpit deck and put a bigger fuel tank under it while shortening/reducing the size of the forward tank, eliminate the forward tank and use saddle or box tanks at or behind the aft house bulkhead, move batteries and water tankage further aft, put motor(s) on longer brackets etc. Lots of flexibility to play with here.
Keep up the great work, guys ... I'm really enjoying the results everyone is getting and the research and reporting. That's what makes our community of Great Alaskan owners great. Can't do it without ya!
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Thanks for weighing in Brian.
My weight during the test would have been somewhere around 5800-6000 lb. I've run it across the local gravel company scales that are accurate to within 20 lb and have a thorough spreadsheet to add/subtract from that weight to arrive at my weight on the water for any given trip. For a "live aboard" my setup is actually very sparse. Typical things I do not have:
head, shower, sink, washdown pump, water tank, plumbing, propane locker/system, doors on cabin cabinets, etc. Plus, my cabin is largely foam core, there was no overbuilding of fiberglass, etc. I'm very happy with the sparse camping setup, and it feels luxurious to me since in previous lives I was a climber, backpacker, etc. That said, I do carry a spare anchor, spare prop, spare chain/nylon anchor rode, two survival suits, tools, spare parts, etc.
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Finally, after another boondoggle with the Sharrow prop, I got a preliminary prop test completed. After quickly replacing the prop torque fin with the flush fin, I put the prop back on, tightened the prop nut down, torqued to 40 ft-lb as spec'd by Suzuki, tweaked the nut to line up for the cotter pin.......and could not get the cotter pin through. Looking closer, the bottom of the slots on the castle/prop nut barely get past the hole in the shaft for the cotter pin. Unbelievable! I checked the prop barrel penetration into the cavity of the lower unit and it's perfect - could not possibly have a thinner thrust washer. After doing some online searching for a shorter prop nut spacer, I ran down to my Suzuki shop with prop and hardware and pics in hand, and it stumped their mechanic who has been doing this 30 years. He was unaware of a thinner prop nut spacer. That sent me home pissed, but determined to somehow get it right. More online research yielded nothing. So I began machining down the spacer and ultimately jigged it up on a right angle jig and cut 3/32" off on my chop saw (it's bronze so easy to cut), cleaned it up with a file, and also filed down the slots in the castle nut a bit. After a bit more fiddling everything fit together perfectly. With very little time before another major incoming storm, I took off for Whittier, an hour away, at 4:30pm. Needless to say the test is already inconclusive because I was unable to get back to the exact weight I was at when I tested the existing Solas prop, so I was probably 200-250 lb lighter.
I played around with engine trim to find the best trim at around 3000 rpm, but totally forgot to do the same for the trim tabs, and proceeded to get on with the test in the building twilight at 6:30pm. You can see in the results graph that, as typical with these props, there is improvement in the low to mid range rpms. In this case, at 3000 rpm, it was only about a 6.8% improvement in NMPG, pretty underwhelming. This graph is the average of my data going both out and back in the same fjord, to eliminate any effects of tidal current, which was minimal given it was low slack tide and there was no wind. With the test complete I started running back to port and realized I forgot to tweak the trim tabs, which always makes a noticeable difference for me. Short story is that at about 3000 rpm I was able to get 6.4% better NMPG than recorded during the test. So, with a lot of caveats, we can say this test shows 13.2% improvement in NMPG at the midrange, BUT, obviously, a proper test needs to be conducted with both props on the same body of water etc. The bottom line? If you are keen to order one for a standard GA, I'm only mildly enthusiastic to support you....for now. There's a good chance the improvement in efficiency/range is only about 7-12% here. I think it's fair to say it will not be up around 30% that I secretly pined for. Yes, it did run a bit smoother and quieter, and there was zero prop torque that I could feel. It's definitely a good prop, but I'm still unsure exactly how much better than my carefully selected standard prop. Another interesting point is that WOT was 5594 rpm, EXACT same as my Solas prop, so Sharrow nailed it there. I have a feeling they modeled the performance of my Solas prop with their design.
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Thanks, Dan! Looking at the graphs, I'm doubting that there is any prop (or other) solution that will get your pined-for 30% increase in efficiency. Probably because the GA hull is already pretty optimized for efficiency - other boat designs may benefit more from the Sharrow prop. I do like the increase speed in the mid-range area for a given rpms - running lower rpms for a target speed results in a longer lasting motor and a quieter cruise. You can't put numbers on those things, but they do have value as well.
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The mid range is a great improvement. I am curious if you have tried to calculate prop slip? They have calculator's online. With the increase in speed over the Solas prop it must be related with prop slip.
Good info!
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I'm eager to do another test with more time to get everything right. I think for the Kodiaks, there may be greater improvement because what I see online is that the bigger, heavier boats get the biggest benefit, but there's a very good chance that's more related to their higher deadrise/deep-V design.
In my case, if I can improve my range by 10%, that adds about 30 miles of range, the equivalent of 10 or 11 gallons of gas. So that's helpful, and way easier than dealing with a couple spare containers of gas stored somewhere that I haven't figured out yet.....but for $5k, not helpful enough to recommend to anyone. More testing needed! I'll try again next week after tanner crab opener and this crazy storm blows itself out.
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More on the Sharrow prop: Went out to set crab traps a couple days ago with a friend who is familiar with the boat. After setting traps we ran out about 45 minutes to do some fishing, and on the way back, he commented that it's noticeably quieter, because in the past we had to talk pretty loud to have a conversation which led to minor headaches with all the noise and quiet yelling, whereas with the Sharrow we conversed at normal volumes and had zero headache and we both noticed significantly less noise fatigue. That's a pretty major periphery advantage to this prop. I'm planning to keep it :)
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Reduction of fatigue caused by noise is a huge deal ... especially on long trips where it can result in foggy-head bad decisions that lead to safety issues. It's why they recommend full ear-muff type headsets to pilots, not just speakers and mics.