Glacier Boats of Alaska - Builder's Forums
Great Alaskan and Boat Building => Projects - Glacier Boats of Alaska boat projects => Topic started by: json on November 20, 2018, 10:33:38 AM
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Hi all,
I have recently started building a GA. I live in southern California, and am lucky enough to have a pretty decent spot to build a boat. My city (Orange) is somewhat a bunch of sticklers about things though, to the point where they made me build a 6 foot fence to make a shop yard if I was going to be building anything in my driveway. I am pretty sure they won't let me build a temporary shelter for a project like this (some people might think it's an eyesore?), so that said what am I going to run into if I do a lot of this build outside? The temperature is pretty mild, there is direct sunlight though, and some things concern me like condensation on things like the jig or pieces of wood that I have yet to encapsulate. I know many people who contribute here build in enclosed shops in the pac nw (I am from a portland suburb so it's definitely a stark contrast to the weather we receive here). My weather very rarely gets below freezing and we get very little rain. It's typically sunny and 70.
I guess the long and short of it is what things should I be aware of / trying to prevent when I am building outside? Is moisture in the air going to be of concern? Can I cover my project in a tied down tarp when I am not working on it to sufficiently protect it from the elements? I can build a lot of the sub-assemblies in my shop but it's only 25x25 so I don't quite have the room in there. Any ideas/advise would be extremely welcome.
Thanks!
Jason
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The process will be one of those one step at a time things, figuring it out as you go. You're not the first though ... I know a guy in Alaska who built his outside. He tried to keep the coating down to a minimum when there was direct sunlight on the project and that sort of thing, e.g. coat late afternoon or early evening (paint or epoxy) when it's cooling and dry. He did have his project get rained on right after adding a fresh coat of epoxy to the sheer decks ... it was sort of funny though, because the rain created a natural anti-skid dimpled surface that turned out pretty cool. The rain just bounces off the wet epoxy. He did go ahead an add another coat later though, once it was dry.
Sometimes you can violate CC&Rs and get the HOA cops after you if you need to in order to get a stage of the process done. I would view such things as a temporary cost to pay while you finish up the project. Fines usually aren't too bad and you only have to pay them off before you sell the house.... for example, plan ahead on things like painting the exterior and then build a temporary shelter that you leave up for a month .... do your work and then take it down .... pay the fines if there are any and move on. So? :)
Some have built in the garage for 90% of the build (all but the top half of the pilot house) and have had the building jig on wheels so you could roll or rotate it out, work on it and put it back. Others have built temporary 'extensions' out of tarp or plywood on the front of their garage to extend the boat working area out onto the driveway. If the HOA complains, tell them you're taking it down as soon as you can... keep'm on a string :)
Brian
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Thanks for weighing in Brian. You bring up good points about just ignoring or leading the city enforcers on to get the stuff done and chalking any fines up to part of the cost of acquiring a bad ass boat. It sounds like a good tactic to use honestly, I will definitely keep that in mind. Also hearing that someone built a GA outside in AK makes me feel a lot better about the prospects of building outside. If he could get it from getting inundated with water I should be able to do the same I imagine (like I said, not much rain). I saw that a gentleman built a Tolman jumbo in a boat yard in San Diego under a costco canopy, I could see that type of thing getting leveled in a bout of heavy wind but with the right seasonal planning maybe I could get it up and down before it became an issue. Anyways, thanks again for your ideas. I am sure I will have many more questions moving forward, sounds like this is the place to ask them.
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Another viable option (check the rules) is to consider finishing up in a storage unit type shelter .... the roof-only type where boats and RVs get stored. Might have to get a small portable generator for some work, but for outfitting, painting, and that sort of thing, this might be another option. If it violates the rules however, then there's a lot of liability parked around you in a place like that .... but for some aspects of finishing up, it can work (once the boat's on a trailer. You could even park it there, bring it home to work on in the driveway, then haul it back. Sometimes you have to be creative but where there's a will, there's a way.
Brian
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that's perfect really.... once you get the hang of it its no big deal... Id say S CA is perfect. Direct sunlight and high temps might set off glue fast... there are workarounds... its an easier problem than cold for sure. you could get bugs in the glue... sand them off. I built outside in temperate NJ andstarted in march... one night I had snow on my tarp. a good compromise is one of thse 8 by 16 taprs put two together and stretch the legs out..... its removeable.... talk to your neighbors first if you think its an issue... other wise a tarp is doable....
do it. you wont regret it
I glassed yest in 50 degree heat and had to use a weed burner to pre heat the wood...
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Hey David, thanks for the info! My thoughts are inline with what you are saying here, so good to hear it confirmed. :) It's a big project to jump into but I may never have a spot that's suitable in the future so I might as well dive in and try to make it happen now. I might make some kind of a-frame over the project that I can drape tarps over when I am not working on the project (keep the tarps off of glue and the project out of the elements as best as possible and whatnot), and just remove them when I am busy doing stuff.
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I think the primary object of this venture is to just do it! Boats have been built for centuries under all imaginable conditions. We tend to overthink everything when building a boat, but the key to it all is just to seriously apply ourselves and start. Procrastination is the biggest killer of dreams and the start of mediocrity! You can do this!
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Thanks for the wise words Cannon. I can definitely see where overthinking could be a huge time sink. I have been working on the project for a month or 2 when I can (got the stem, shelves done and working currently on the transom), but with 2 small kids and 2 jobs sucking up 60 hours a week it's hard to find time. I am hoping the 2 job thing changes in the not too distant future, in the meantime I am just plugging away where I can and trying to just keep the project moving forward.
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Thanks for the wise words Cannon. I can definitely see where overthinking could be a huge time sink. I have been working on the project for a month or 2 when I can (got the stem, shelves done and working currently on the transom), but with 2 small kids and 2 jobs sucking up 60 hours a week it's hard to find time. I am hoping the 2 job thing changes in the not too distant future, in the meantime I am just plugging away where I can and trying to just keep the project moving forward.
That's the main thing ... keep making progress whenever you can, and it'll get done :) Unless you're retired, most have busy schedules while building .... You'll forget all about it after the boat's done
Brian
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As summer is approaching I am getting ready to move this show outside. :) So far I have been using Ebond 1285 with the standard hardener. What is the pros/cons of using a slower hardener when I move into the heat of summer? My next order will likely be 15 gallons, so I don't want to get a big bucket of 1285 hardener and find out that it gels way to fast in the summer. I don't mind waiting the extra time to cure honestly (I can just spread components out/work on something else while I wait) and can keep a gallon of the faster stuff around, but am thinking about going with the slow hardener unless there is something fundamentally less optimal or some shortcoming that I am overlooking. Any advice or experiences shared would be awesome, thanks in advance.
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There's nothing fundamentally wrong with the different speed hardeners, e.g. strength and flexibility. That said, you'll have to estimate temperature ranges that you will work in, allow the epoxy to cure in, look at pot times for the different hardeners that you'll be using, and run it all past eBond's technical support and let them guide. For sure, you don't want part of the epoxy curing in direct sunlight and part in the shade ... in fact, you should always shelter curing epoxy so the direct sun doesn't heat it up enough to make the underlying wood out-gas ... and you don't want part curing fast (sun) and part slow (shade). Use David Nolan's approach ... only apply epoxy during a cooling trend. In other words, provide shade for curing parts and apply epoxy after the peak temperature of the day.
Brian
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Perfect. Thanks Brian.
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Perfect. Thanks Brian.
Advice worth what ya paid for it.... ::) ;D
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Ha! I think it's worth more than that. The shade bit is worth at least $3. ¯\_(ツ)_/¯
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Ha! I think it's worth more than that. The shade bit is worth at least $3. ¯\_(ツ)_/¯
;D :o 8) ;D
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for what its worth... esp outside... get a weed burner.... there will be times you aren't sure if the wood is damp or it is damp.... and its very very easy to dry out plywood with a few quick passes of the weedburner to drive out the moisture in the wood or to dry it if it gets wet. you wont set your boat on fire....
I use mine a lot...... say its a cold night... just a pre heat of the panel brings it up quick and drives the moisture out.
best time to glass is mid afternoon on a warm day when its cooling off and no direct sun...
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David, this doesn't run a risk of warping panels due to moisture imbalance? If it did warp panels would it even matter? I will look into a weed burner, I am sure there are a multitude of fun things I could do besides this task with it. :)
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$20 at harbor freight sold! Maybe this will save me on the cost of buying roundup too!
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absolutely no warping of panels..... Now if you throw a panel outside on the ground in warm weather, it will warp as the sun heats the top and moisture from the ground enters the bottom and it curves upwards....
I use mine a LOT. Even things like early morning dew that might be on your wood.... bamm its gone....
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Weed burners are fun to have anyway ... even if just burning weeds! ;D
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I haven't really posted much about my build (pics or otherwise), but what better time to start than now? Today I took some time out of my work day to epoxy stitch the fairbody. The only thing I have left to work on really until the Kodiak addendum is posted is the fairbody seam, so hopefully that isn't far out (rumor has it this weekend? :) :) :) ).
Quick question, as you can see in the third picture here, some of my panels got wet during the last rain. I don't think it's going to be a problem, but am hoping someone can weigh in with assurances that the panels aren't wrecked since they got pretty wet. I think they have dried out and seem structurally sound but I am worried that maybe they could have water ingress inside the panel that doesn't manifest until later when the panel is sealed in epoxy and the moisture rots the panels. Maybe I am just paranoid.
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If you can find what the BS1088 spec for marine plywood and read it may make you feel better. It might be some reassurance.
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Good call Todd. I am gonna look that up.
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Yeah ... water not the best additive to the boat project! Let the wood dry thoroughly and give it a light sanding before adding glass and epoxy. Water raises the grain a tad. No worries on the glass and epoxy - and your wood is good stuff and won't care too much either, but still good to avoid water. Speaking of glass, the sooner you get the top face (towards rain) of the bottom panel assembly glassed the better. Seeing wet epoxy/glass feels better than seeing wet wood. (BTW, it has happened to me too .... I even had some mildew growing on the wood ... chlorox, dry thoroughly, sand, and epoxy/glass .... nobody's the wiser :) )
Brian
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Ya, it's cheap insurance to buy new tarps that you know don't have holes in them, lesson learned. :) They are pretty dry, I will give them a good once over with the sander and work on getting the assembly coated in epoxy at the very least.
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Json,
Not sure if you put box tape on the 2x4's but if not I would pull them and run box tape on the bottom and sides, resin will run underneath and... I found this out haha.
May I suggest:
If you have slow hardener I would use it for the fillets, apply the whole fillet and roll your dry tape right onto the fillet before it hardens. You can use a gloved hand to lightly press it down. It will start to soak up resin. then use a roller to apply more epoxy to the cloth as needed, finish off with shower squeegee to move excess resin onto the hull.
Rbob
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Oh, great point. Yes, I will put some box tape on them for sure, thanks for pointing that out. I just received 15 gallons from ebond with 5 gallons of slow hardener, so I will use that for doing the seam work. Thanks for the advice Rbob!
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Wow ... I've never heard of 'box tape'! We use 'masking tape'... not the more expensive 'packing tape' :D
Brian
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Quick google search says "Resins like polyester, vinylester and epoxy will not stick to polypropylene which means that once cured the laminating pattern, mould or part can easily be removed from the board.", I suppose that if masking tape did stick it would be easy enough to scrape off, but good to know that box tape would not stick (in my previous life working as a mover I was exposed to way too much box tape).
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I looked it up. Box tape is what we call 'clear packing tape' around here. I think the glue that's on the tape is what the epoxy runs into when it drips through a seam. Masking tape peels right off after curing. Probably the same glue as the clear packing tape. We also just call it 'packing tape', and if we mean the kind that has the fiberglass in it, then it's either "fiberglass packing tape" or "strapping tape". What part of the country are you in? Do you say pancakes, hotcakes, or griddle cakes? :D
Brian
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Ha! I am in southern California, we call them pancakes around these parts. :) I grew up near Gresham OR, and everyone in those parts calls fizzy sugar drinks 'pop'. When I first moved to california everyone made fun of me constantly for calling it 'pop'. I now know the error of my ways, it's soda.
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Ha! I am in southern California, we call them pancakes around these parts. :) I grew up near Gresham OR, and everyone in those parts calls fizzy sugar drinks 'pop'. When I first moved to california everyone made fun of me constantly for calling it 'pop'. I now know the error of my ways, it's soda.
Same here ... Pacific Northwest. It's pancakes. But when I grew up, we called all soft drinks 'coke'. You could walk into your local Arctic Circle and tell the guy you wanted a large coke. He'd say "What kind?" .... then you tell him ... "Orange". Now it seems that 'soda' is the word to use, and if you say 'coke', they'll say, "Sorry ... only got Pepsi". :D
Brian
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Pop, pancakes, packing tape --- I suspect are all Canadian influences.
But I've never heard a 'Mericun say rooooof (not ruf), or call the things we put on our heads in the winter by their correct name - a "Toque". :) :) :) :)
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Gawd Bless 'Merkah, Fords'n Shivvies! Gotta love bein' deplorable....
bd
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I built the Kodiak chines and installed them on my bottom assembly, I guess I am committed at this point so a new title is in order. I have also changed to building a curved transom since I need to redo that as well, so I have some 12mm aquatek glued up for that. I have to say that one of my favorite parts of this build so far is using trigonometry to find lengths or angles that I need (for instance I didn't have a protractor so I was using the Pythagorean theorem to cut angles when I needed a reference). It's good to finally use some of that stuff I spent so many hours learning once upon a time. I assume there is probably going to be a lot of that when I do the lofting of the transom.
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Looks like a lot of sawdust on the floor! How are the kodiak chine flats
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Ha! Ya, I need to sweep that up, I am getting tired of walking on it. :) They are pretty wide, the bottom assembly is pretty large with them on it. I am really excited to see how wide this hull is fully assembled, there is a long way to go before that happens though.
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It's funny, because to me, the picture of the wider chine flats looks a lot like the normal width ... Maybe I should've made them a yard wide :D :D ?
bd
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I was wondering if the hull would look odd with the bigger chines, but I think it will probably look just fine. They are almost double the width though. A yard wide might be pushing it a bit. :)
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It's funny, because to me, the picture of the wider chine flats looks a lot like the normal width ... Maybe I should've made them a yard wide :D :D ?
bd
They look a foot wide In that perspective. I guessed 1 1/2”-2” wider? Judging y the amount hanging over the mold
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Json, I am also building a curved transom. Did you use 4 sheets of 1/2? How easy did it bend?
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It's funny, because to me, the picture of the wider chine flats looks a lot like the normal width ... Maybe I should've made them a yard wide :D :D ?
bd
They look a foot wide In that perspective. I guessed 1 1/2”-2” wider? Judging y the amount hanging over the mold
Ya, they are probably 2 inches wider than the other ones I built, I think they are 7 wide at the widest spot.
Json, I am also building a curved transom. Did you use 4 sheets of 1/2? How easy did it bend?
You are correct Dennis, it's 4 sheets of 1/2" ply, although really just 2 sheets cut in two. I researched a bit on the minimum bending radius for different thicknesses of plywood and used that as my guide, and I think I ended up settling on 12'. The material was pretty easy to bend, getting it glued and bent and lined up in place was another story. :)
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I love the look of a curved transom!
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I love the look of a curved transom!
It helps to prevent broaching in a following sea too.
Brian
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I cut the transom out today, and proved once again that I can't cut an accurate angle with a jigsaw to save my life, compounded by curved lines that are a result of a curved transom, and the fit is 'ok'. I am actually pretty happy how close I came, I was kind of thinking I was going to screw up somewhere and have to start all over. Question I have when thinking about the lamination I did, should I be worried if I didn't put microfibers in the glue? My gut says don't sweat it, if it wants to delaminate it's going to only be able to do so around the edges and probably won't do so since it will be hugged tight by glass. Maybe I will throw some biaxial over the outside corners to reinforce them a bit. Idk, opinions welcome about that.
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I never put milled glass into laminating mixes. It's not necessary. In fact, since it flows the best, the only thing I ever use is straight silica ... no wood flour or other additives. It's really inconsequential regardless. When laminating, you are putting together a huge surface area of glue ... it's not going to come apart. If your wood is soaked in water and not encapsulated with epoxy (rule #1 .. do it right!), then I have seen water expand wood to the point of failure. That was on a splash-rail, and why in the manual, I suggest a long silicon bronze screw through splash rails and rubrails into the stem. Both can get banged up on docks and what not, and if not repaired, can expose wood to water. In any case, you won't have any issues. I recommend milled glass fibers in fillets where stress and 'impact' type loads can occur. In particular, that would be the fillets on the bow and on the transom corners. The milled glass fiber adds tensile strength to the epoxy and prevents cracking if a bad impact occurs (airborne plunges into big swells, hitting large heavy floating objects or deadheads, driving over centerline curbs in the road at speed etc).
Brian
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Ah, ok, that makes sense. The instructions for gluing the LVL to the transom specify utilizing fibers, but there is not as much surface area for that joint so it makes more sense why it would need to be higher strength. Good to know about just making sure there is adequate coverage and waterproofing.
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Ah, ok, that makes sense. The instructions for gluing the LVL to the transom specify utilizing fibers, but there is not as much surface area for that joint so it makes more sense why it would need to be higher strength. Good to know about just making sure there is adequate coverage and waterproofing.
All good! I believe in over-strong ... the Great Alaskan is overly strong on purpose :D
Brian
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Json, how much bend did you put in your transom. I was thinking 10-12 inches?
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Ya, it was approximately 10 inches. I had about an inch or 2 on the edge of a 2x12 that I cut the mold out of. It could have been a bit sharper of a bend I think but that seemed to work well.
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I got the fairbody flipped today, boy, that thing is not light. My brother came down and helped me do it. I thought we would just be able to pick it up and flip it over, but it took a bit of planning to get it done. Whatever, no harm no foul. Next up I am working on a couple of wood gantry cranes to manage the fairbody as I install the shelves, stem, stringers, and transom. Hopefully that's the last time I need help until the next flip. It's always a pain to coordinate with people to get things done, and of course it always starts raining right when you get the required help in place. Either way, onward and upward.
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pics
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Yeah ... it's about as heavy as you'd want to handle, but that said, other boats this size have you handling more complex and heavier parts yet. The GA is able to be built with very little help. Don't feel bad about drilling holes and using blocks fit to the bottom and/or through-bolts and what not. Same goes with those cross pieces for support ... do what's strongest (I always trust bolts more than clamps or even big screws). It's not hard to patch it up after the bottom's on those stringers/stem/transom ... :)
Looking great and you're going fast!
Brian
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So I ran into a little hiccup and I am not sure how far I need to backpedal here, hopefully people can weigh in with some advice. When I made the shelves, I didn't have a ton of space so I made them in front half/back half assemblies, but with a butt-joint for front/back to be assembled when installing on the shelf molds. Sounds easy enough right? So my first mistake, when putting them on there was a 2" gap on the bow joint when they appeared fair from the sides. Instead of moving the molds to keep the fairness, I tried to fit them the best I could to the molds and I kinked one (not sure what I was thinking) and then glued them and faired that side to a fair curve. All seemed right, sight test looked good, sheer looked fair. The problem festering was that the center point of the bow joint of the shelves is 1" off to the side. So now, I glued up the stem, was fitting it, was like 'hmmm, the stringers don't quite fit right to the bow', then went with a plumb bob and measured offsets, the bottom is sitting about 1" off (so horizontal only distance from the outside of the shelf to the outside of the chine is like 2" off of the other side). I am not entirely sure what to do here other than be irritated at myself that I didn't think if there is a kink there is something else going on that needs attention. To be somewhat less down on myself, the bottom assembly was sitting in the way when I was doing all of this so getting a centerline was difficult at best, but either way I have a situation where I need to either unglue the stem, cut the shelves in half, then figure out how far off they actually are and fix them, or just continue on with the bottom 1" to the right and center it the best I can and chalk that little booboo up to me just being in a hurry or not thinking.
My gut is telling me to back up and fix the shelves, maybe cut a full-size template and check the shelves currently, then if they are off cut them apart with a coping saw and reglue them and fair them to each other, then glue them together and then maybe cut some grooves in the previously glued part of the stem and shelves to help them adhere better and move forward. Advice would be greatly appreciated. :)
Thanks,
Jason
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No problem!
The good news is that in spite of it all, you are able to get plumb and center lines that show the error, and of course, there is always a way to fish anything on these boats. You can disconnect the stem from the shelves by laying a hand saw flat on the shelves at the bow (if the stem is already glued to the shelves) and saw through to release the stem. Same with the bow end of the shelves ... you can saw through the joint to disconnect them from each other. Now ... are they glued in at the transom? It's a little harder to saw them loose back there, but it can be done. On the inner edge of the shelves, you can drill a series of holes along the line to release it there, and use a hand saw to saw inward top and bottom.
Once shelves are loose again, you can reposition them or even replace them. I suspect that there's no reason for replacement, but if you want to cut and re-attach fore and aft sections or whatever, you can of course. You can re-scarf sections together using a diagonal cut (like the A-B line in the drawings) if you need to. Keep in mind that filling gaps with epoxy is A-OK, even if they're on the larger side. Also, when the side panels wrap around the boat, they naturally curve over and fair imperfections in the shape of the shelves ... let epoxy fill the low spots. Finally, if your stem ends up being off by an inch plus or minus, you will NOT be able to notice it in the final boat and it'll make no difference in performance. Carry on! Most of all ... please post pix showing the challenges that you ran into and how you went about fixing them. Don't be bummed.... just fix it and keep on trucking! It's going to be an awesome boat and you've got the very first KODIAK in construction and hopefully will be the first to launch one!
Brian
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The first attached is what the sides would look like with the error, but I went ahead and cut the bow stem off this morning. :) I am going to try to fix it by squaring the bottom assembly and stringers back to the jig and then trying to fit the bow stem to the shelves and the bottom. I also bought a roll of craft paper so I am going to make a full length lofting of a shelf and then check how close both sides are, and then depending on what that shows I may or may not take them apart and try to fix them. The second attached shows the kink on the starboard shelf. I will take pictures of my journey, and post them when I have more stuff to show. Right now it's hard to see in pictures stuff being off, but it is when I measure. Now that the bottom is sitting on the stringers on the horses it's a lot easier to get in there and make sure things are equidistant from the origin. Hopefully this is just a minor bump in the road and I can get back on track shortly.
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Hey ... stop sweating! It doesn't look bad from here. If it were me, I'd be tempted to use a low-angle block plane or a power hand plane and shave off the outside of the 'kink' area until it's fair and matches your butcher paper lofting close enough. It is NOT an exact science, and you should feel satisfied with fair curves, however you got them and whether or not they match the original design down to gnat's a** or not. After planing down the outside until fair, then just use thickened epoxy on the inner edge to build the inside 'kink' into a fair curve. You can always wrap the inner fill with some 6-oz glass or so just to give it more tensile strength. Glass wrapped epoxy fill is stronger than the original wood would've been - no problem. Keep these ideas in mind as you do your checking too.... might save you some work and time.
Brian
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A gnats a I did not match, but after some adjusting I did get something I am happy with. I disconnected the stem and moved the shelves around slightly, then put the bottom assembly in place and remeasured, getting the offset much smaller (maybe 1/2 inch between sides, definitely within the acceptable margin of error for me). The stem is pretty close to vertical, and now everything seems to fit together much better, at least doing measurements from chine to shelf. So, onward we go. I got the stem glued back in place, and got the stringers and transom installed, hoping to install the bottom assembly in the next day or 2. Here are some pics of the transom being installed, no further pics of my boo-boo because it wasn't really photogenic. :)
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Good on ya.. I was wondering how things were going. Glad to hear that things are on track. Did you end up reconnecting fore/aft sections of the shelves, or did you tweak them as they are (or were?)? The transom's looking awesome!
Brian
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Good on ya.. I was wondering how things were going. Glad to hear that things are on track. Did you end up reconnecting fore/aft sections of the shelves, or did you tweak them as they are (or were?)? The transom's looking awesome!
Brian
I was able to tweak them without separating them into pieces, and just sort of aligned everything back to center, and tried to get them moved back toward the center as much as I could, then took some measurements to see how the bottom assembly looked to the shelf placement, and after much futzing around it looked pretty good port vs stbd and the bow stem was pretty close to vertical. I had previously faired the shelves with a low angle block plane, so they are fair curves, and they seem to be pretty equidistant from the centerline of the bottom assembly, so I think I am pretty good to go. Good thing this boat doesn't take furniture joints, I would have a pile of scrap at this point. I am sure by the end of this I will be a pro at hiding my mistakes, as I am making plenty of them...
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<snip>
Good thing this boat doesn't take furniture joints, I would have a pile of scrap at this point. I am sure by the end of this I will be a pro at hiding my mistakes, as I am making plenty of them...
Epoxy-filled joints are stronger than tight wood-to-wood joints with a thin glue layer ... My kind of joinery! Wiggly jigsaw cuts are A-OK!
Brian
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I got the bottom assembly glued on today, which took a lot longer than I thought it would. No sweat though, I am using ebond's 1289 so I took my time and got it done. Next up, 2nd bow layer.
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How did you decide to finish the back of your boat? Nice transom!
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How did you decide to finish the back of your boat? Nice transom!
Thanks! I am not entirely sure yet, I am thinking I am going to maybe have a swim platform and then a second curved transom 2 feet in front of the real one. I am still sort of pondering it and probably will for a while honestly. I plan on flipping without the second one installed to make it easier to get in and out of the hull to do the interior work. How about you Djeffrey?
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Doing the same
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Doing the same
Awesome, can't wait to see what you come up with!
I got the second bow layer installed. It was uneventful, with the exception that my scarfs are pretty lousy and it's going to take some fairing to whip them into shape. Par for the course though from the sounds of it. The bow feels really solid once the second layer is installed, it's pretty awesome how this hull is really starting to get pretty rigid. I wasn't sure how solid it was going to feel when it was just a floppy plywood assembly but now it is becoming apparent that this is going to be a pretty bulletproof boat.
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You're getting lots of work done fast and it's looking great!
And yes, this boat is OVERLY strong ... that's a good thing. Strength does come from the sum of the parts, not just individual pieces :D
Brian
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Jason, How’s it going out there in Cali ? Much progress to report?
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Jason, How’s it going out there in Cali ? Much progress to report?
Slow and steady. :) I forgot how busy summertime is, so my plan to really crush it on progress is falling through to camping and entertaining my kids. Oh well. Regardless, I got the first side installed yesterday, I ran out of time to do the stitches but probably going to find a minute to do them today. This is going to be a big boat.
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Looking great! Yup .. BIG boats are BIG fun!
Good on ya for giving the kids and family some time. Building a boat can be rough on the family life if not managed well :)
What's in the cinder block building with the red stripe? Looks like an Action Auto or something :D Curious... Love your tenacity and creativity in building outside. Good thing you're in sunny California ... 8)
Brian
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Looking great! Yup .. BIT boats are BIG fun!
Good on ya for giving the kids and family some time. Building a boat can be rough on the family life if not managed well :)
What's in the cinder block building with the red stripe? Looks like an Action Auto or something :D Curious... Love your tenacity and creativity in building outside. Good thing you're in sunny California ... 8)
Brian
Ya, I am definitely very conscious about making sure I am dedicating time to the fam. I have been trying to get my kids into boat building but they may be a bit young (2 and 4). :P They have swept the shop floor up with a shop vac a couple times, now I just need to get them cracking on slinging some epoxy and I will have a valuable resource. My son is super into the whole process when he is around watching, my daughter not so much. Most of the time I spend working on it though is after they are in bed or during the day when they are in school.
The cinder block building is a mom and pop run storage unit, so that actually works out pretty well since I don't have neighbors on that side and can mind my own affairs without anyone getting up in arms about dust or whatnot. It's really a pretty perfect spot for it since I built the fence around it. The sunshine helps too, although I came back from camping a couple weeks ago to find my tarp blown off and light rain soaking the whole bottom (blah). Left the tarp off for a few days and the sun dried it all out, seems no worse for the wear. It's been a very wet year and a struggle to keep the project dry, but seems that the rain is over for the summer so now the challenge is largely trying to find time to do epoxy work that's not in the mid-afternoon sun. Always a challenge figuring out how to deal with the elements, but that's how it goes building outside.
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All good. I know a guy in Alaska that built mostly outdoors ... and even got rain on fresh epoxy. It cured with neat little dimples all over it, but other than sanding and needed a leveling coat, it didn't hurt a thing. Warping (uncoated) wood is the worst fear.... not so much on other stuff (assuming you aren't going to store it unprotected from UV for a year or something.)
Brian
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I got the final side panel installed last night, so hey, it's a boat! Pretty cool to see this all come together I must say. My on-the-boat scarfs might have been the best ones I have ever done, not sure how putting wood vertical and hard to manage makes me better at scarfing but hey, I'll take it. I also got to try out that nifty little trick with the roll pin. Boy, that sure beats drilling a dozen holes around a broken screw and fishing for it.
I am tempted to do a bottom coat with titanium dioxide just to protect the boat from the heat from sitting upside down under the sun. Or possibly even make that the bottom coat. It's covered by a tarp but it would be nice if I could leave it uncovered while I focus on it so I don't need to keep covering it all the time. As I think about it, as much as I kind of want a graphite bottom for the looks and ease of maintaining it I think sitting upside down outside might be damaging from the heat it would absorb in the so cal summer sun until I was ready to flip it.
Up next is a week of vacation with the family and then a month off work to be a boat builder full time. That's the plan anyways... :P
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I decided to go pour unthickened epoxy right on the bottom. Squeegee it all over the boat. Sides too. Then glass and treat the hull. Kick the whole thing outside for awhile and build a couple gantry cranes. Then resume the build again inside. I wonder if just epoxy coating the bottom and leaving it untended for the duration of the summer would accomplish the same thing if it’s rained upon.
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I decided to go pour unthickened epoxy right on the bottom. Squeegee it all over the boat. Sides too. Then glass and treat the hull. Kick the whole thing outside for awhile and build a couple gantry cranes. Then resume the build again inside. I wonder if just epoxy coating the bottom and leaving it untended for the duration of the summer would accomplish the same thing if it’s rained upon.
I would feel a lot better about my project sitting outside if it was coated. However I can see from chunks of epoxy that have been sitting in the sun that they start to get pretty weathered pretty fast in direct sunlight. Interesting that you evicted your hull to build some cranes. :) Is that for the flip? I think if I was doing a gantry in the shop I would just rope the beam to the rafters and then build up the feet right in place. Probably easier without a giant hull in the way though.
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It’s not cast iron yet. Yes it would be for the flip. I might get a pile of 6x6x1/2 Ibeam. It’s way overkill, it it’s free to me.... maybe. This stuff is 25# per foot and my shop is 20 feet wide. I don’t trust the structure to hold the the beam. If I did I would use it to flip the hull. If your Interested read my “a house for a GA “ thread here. It chronicles my dogshit to honey boat shed Reno/build.
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It’s not cast iron yet. Yes it would be for the flip. I might get a pile of 6x6x1/2 Ibeam. It’s way overkill, it it’s free to me.... maybe. This stuff is 25# per foot and my shop is 20 feet wide. I don’t trust the structure to hold the the beam. If I did I would use it to flip the hull. If your Interested read my “a house for a GA “ thread here. It chronicles my dogshit to honey boat shed Reno/build.
Right, ya, I read that towards the end of when you were doing it. Now that I remember you also have those canted beams too, so ya, attaching a 500lb beam to those guys doesn't sound very safe haha. I was going to use my cranes that I built to do my flip but then realized that my hull won't fit under them on it's side. So 10 dudes + pizza and beer sounds like it's going to be the way for me.
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Brian, quick question about fairing the bottom and chine Seam with the transom (pre-glass). Should I try my best to keep that edge as sharp as possible? I was reading somewhere (maybe on fishyfish) that if you don’t have a sharp exit of your bottom assembly you will lose lift and possibly not be able to get on plane. I doubt such an extreme scenario would happen from rounding the edge some but what should I be aiming for for a radius between the aft end of the bottom and chines to the transom?
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There was a ton of discussion on this subject not long ago on fishy fish. From what I remember. Radius the transom for glass and make the edge sharp. Sounds like it makes a big difference.
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Cool cool... thx Todd.
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If you want a sharp stern transition (bottom to transom corner), you'd do it last. Radius as necessary for the glass to make the bend OK, scrape and fair all overlapped glass in prep for final epoxy coats. THEN you can form a sharper edge with thickened epoxy ... it'll take a few passes and you'll want to use a metal ruler or other straight edge to verify that the new 'edge' prescribes a straight run off the bottom of the boat. Fill defects, repeat. The corner doesn't need to be razor sharp .. a small radius is fine. Some think it improves efficiency ... and it may when on smooth water (lake or similar), but offshore it won't make a measurable difference. Some say it'll help the boat get on plane ... but unless you've hugely rounded that corner (!!), it won't help on a Great Alaskan .. the GA only raises it's bow by about 4 degrees and then it lifts onto plane like an elevator ... and the bow-up trim reduces once on plane ... finally reducing to just over 2 degrees when at speeds around 40 knots and faster.
Bottom line: Sharpen up the corner if it makes you feel better, but in a practical world, this would be more an a 'polishing the apple' exercise than anything. If it were me and mid-winter, waiting for Spring, then maybe I'd do it. But if the calendar is zooming by and another boating season approaches then I'd skip it and go boating ... and decide later on if I felt it was still worth it to me or not (I suspect not). Oh .. one other thing. The sharper edge may allow the boat to go a couple knots faster, say, having top speed of 42-43 knots instead of 40 knots. Previous experience with one other GA (slightly stern heavy) says the boat picks up a slight porpoising above 40-42 knots or so ... that's FAST! The sharp edge may let you go a little faster without any instabilities showing up.
Brian
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My 2 cents worth.
I suspect that once the hull has passed the speed where the flow separates cleanly at the stern and the chines, the stern/transom radius has virtually zero effect - all other things being equal. However, the sharper the edge, the slower the speed possible before the boundary layer turns the corner and re-attaches to the stern, and the hull stops planing.
But the chines (at the rear of the boat) need to be equally as "sharp" as the stern. Sharpening the stern won't be as effective if the water climbs the sides and attaches to the sides of the hull.
The lighter the bottom loading, the more effective the sharpening will be.
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Interesting, ok, thanks guys. I am not going to worry about it right now then. Going to focus on getting the glass to follow the edge and lay flat.
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Good point on the chines. Curves that cause the water to want to 'climb up' cause an equal and opposite reaction .. the hull is slightly pulled down. That's a loss in efficiency. But ... it's very small on a boat this size and undetectable in normal use. I'd consider doing it mostly because it would make me feel more like I did the very best job I could in building the boat. Race boats that need to eek out that list .5 mph is where you usually see these 'sharp edge' efforts being used.
bd
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Sand fill sand sand fill sand sand glass fill sand... I was working on taping the chines yesterday and was breaking into a new roll of 10oz that I had bought online (maybe on ebay, can't remember). Anyways, as soon as I opened it I knew something was off. It was stiff as if if had already been wet out with resin (although it hadn't been). I went ahead and rolled up 3 meters of it and cut some tape out of it for the chines, and got busy doing a wet on wet biax+10oz layup. About 2 feet into it I had to abandon the 10oz because it wouldn't wet out or lay flat on the seams. Has anyone run into fabric like this? Is it just cheap crappy fabric or is there some other underlying problem that it was subject to (age, moisture, ??)?
I have a deadline to flip by August 30 (or one of my limited helpers won't be available for the next 2 months), so hoping to put it in overdrive and get there. Back to sand sand fill sand glass fill sand...
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Do you have some other 10-oz cloth to compare to? There is a type of cloth called "finishing cloth" that has finer yarn and a tight weave .... it's designed to lay flat and have a smooth texture that is easy to finish to a smooth surface (that means "might be done after just one fill coat"). What I do *NOT* like about finishing cloth is that it won't follow a bend (like on a seam) very well and if you dare wrinkle it, the wrinkly shows through the finish later ... tough to get flat and must be faired out with a fairing mix. Now, if you're just glassing a large flat surface such as the decks in the boat, or the interior surface of hull panels, before installation, then the stuff works fine. You might save it for that kind of work, but normal woven fiberglass will be a lot nicer to work with on those hard corners.
Now ... since you likely have biax curing away right now and didn't get to use woven glass on top of it, wet on wet, you likely will have hard ridges (the knitting that holds the two layers of glass together in the biax) to fair in. The quickest way to get rid of the knitting on biax is to scrape it off with a good (Sandvik or similar) carbide scraper ... the knitting is not structural. Scrape it off, add a fill coat, then put your next layer of glass right on it.
Brian
PS: If you lose the 2 months this Fall, choose to be OK with that ... something about trying to get in a hurry invokes Murphy's Law and mucho paino.... relax and give the boat your best, and be OK with losing a couple of months or go find another handy helper to help you turn over the hull (or be creative with chain hoists as many others have done).
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Going to follow this more closely. My buddy with a 28 Novi is going to pull the twin 200 Suzis off of it and wants a 30 ft by 9.5 Kodiak next spring. Nice pics. Dave Nolan
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Do you have some other 10-oz cloth to compare to? There is a type of cloth called "finishing cloth" that has finer yarn and a tight weave .... it's designed to lay flat and have a smooth texture that is easy to finish to a smooth surface (that means "might be done after just one fill coat"). What I do *NOT* like about finishing cloth is that it won't follow a bend (like on a seam) very well and if you dare wrinkle it, the wrinkly shows through the finish later ... tough to get flat and must be faired out with a fairing mix. Now, if you're just glassing a large flat surface such as the decks in the boat, or the interior surface of hull panels, before installation, then the stuff works fine. You might save it for that kind of work, but normal woven fiberglass will be a lot nicer to work with on those hard corners.
Now ... since you likely have biax curing away right now and didn't get to use woven glass on top of it, wet on wet, you likely will have hard ridges (the knitting that holds the two layers of glass together in the biax) to fair in. The quickest way to get rid of the knitting on biax is to scrape it off with a good (Sandvik or similar) carbide scraper ... the knitting is not structural. Scrape it off, add a fill coat, then put your next layer of glass right on it.
Brian
PS: If you lose the 2 months this Fall, choose to be OK with that ... something about trying to get in a hurry invokes Murphy's Law and mucho paino.... relax and give the boat your best, and be OK with losing a couple of months or go find another handy helper to help you turn over the hull (or be creative with chain hoists as many others have done).
I went and posted a chargeback for it this morning, it was billed as #7500 style, and is very rigid vs some other #7500 I have laying around. The weave looks the same (from what I saw yesterday), it's just weirdly stiff and plasticky.
That's a good point about Murphy's law. I really want to launch on my 40th birthday (next May) but it's probably a good idea to put workmanship first and make sure this is a safe vessel for my family and others to be riding in. :P Point well received.
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That's odd about the glass. It's probably been treated with a wetting agent designed for a particular type of resin ... and not the standard product and/or treatment.
You can launch by then, no problem. Just bring oars.... :o ;D
Brian
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Fiberglasssupply.com look on the net or call. I often get stuff the next day. Been great to deal with so far. I talk to Rich.
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Fiberglasssupply.com look on the net or call. I often get stuff the next day. Been great to deal with so far. I talk to Rich.
Ditto on Fiberglass Supply ... http://www.fiberglassSupply.com . They're my go-to company for glass and fillers. They're in the Seattle area.
Brian
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Cool, I will check them out. There is a composites shop in newport beach called revchem that has a ton of stuff that's about 1/2 hour away depending on traffic, it's easier to order online but sometimes I will throw my kid in the car for the carpool lane and take a trip down there to just get the stuff in hand. After that glass snaffoo I am definitely interested in finding an online resource that's trustworthy.
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Json whats the LOA going to be?
DO you use a carbide scraper on green glass? I hope the answer is yes. I'm assuming you are.
Dave
looks great!!
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Json whats the LOA going to be?
DO you use a carbide scraper on green glass? I hope the answer is yes. I'm assuming you are.
Dave
looks great!!
Thanks Dave! LOA for the hull is currently a hair over 29', I made components for 28' but with the curvy transom I was able to maximize bottom panel and stringer length to get to 29'. Definitely yes on the scraper, makes the glass overlay or fairing much easier when there aren't wild strands sticking up all over the place.
-- Jason
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I finished all the exterior seams on the boat today, and was able to glass the starboard side last night. Making progress, little by little. I didn't get to do the month of full time boat building that I had hoped for (life gets in the way of the best laid plans) but I did get to focus on it quite a bit more, so I am happy with the progress I have been able to make. I do have a fairly large hump on the starboard side where the second bow layer scarf joint is, I have sanded a lot of it down but it's still there somewhat. I might just say good enough is good enough and move on, as I am not sure how much material I am going to have to remove to get it down far enough.
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Fill in on either side of the hump and then sand and blend it in. Kinda like doing a butt-joint in drywall.
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I agree fill in the low side and don’t sand the wood down any more. I had a little hump in that area as well. Filled it with micro balloons.
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Ok, I will keep trying to fill around it. It's a pointy peak, so material removal seems like it's the way to achieve the right shape... I will keep on adding on both sides tho and hopefully I can come up with something that looks fair before too long.
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Being a bit of a "Devil's Advocate" here. Some additional points to ponder.
Is the "hump" due to excess epoxy between the layers? or a void?
If it is a void, then I see some "Epoxy Injection" in your near future.
IMO - IF you haven't glassed that area yet, and IF it is due to excess filler between layers, I would knock the wood down to get it to "grade", then continue fairing and glassing. But you don't want to make this area of the hull any thinner than any other - just knock off the excess. A straight edge (or a curved batten) will be your friend.
If you have your glass on already, you are stuck with fairing. The glass layers provide the major component of the strength and stiffness to the panel, and you need to preserve their integrity, and not sand into them.
That area is approximately where the water surface (and debris) will impact the hull when planing at speed - I'm not sure a pile of weak filler between the wood and the glass is a good idea in that area.
When are you ever going to see it, after the hull is flipped?
David Nolan over on FishyFish swears by an 80 grit flap wheel on an angle grinder for finish sanding............... Just be careful!!
Brian should be along shortly, and set us all straight
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Being a bit of a "Devil's Advocate" here. Some additional points to ponder.
Is the "hump" due to excess epoxy between the layers? or a void?
If it is a void, then I see some "Epoxy Injection" in your near future.
IMO - IF you haven't glassed that area yet, and IF it is due to excess filler between layers, I would knock the wood down to get it to "grade", then continue fairing and glassing. But you don't want to make this area of the hull any thinner than any other - just knock off the excess. A straight edge (or a curved batten) will be your friend.
If you have your glass on already, you are stuck with fairing. The glass layers provide the major component of the strength and stiffness to the panel, and you need to preserve their integrity, and not sand into them.
That area is approximately where the water surface (and debris) will impact the hull when planing at speed - I'm not sure a pile of weak filler between the wood and the glass is a good idea in that area.
When are you ever going to see it, after the hull is flipped?
David Nolan over on FishyFish swears by an 80 grit flap wheel on an angle grinder for finish sanding............... Just be careful!!
Brian should be along shortly, and set us all straight
That's a good point Jim... I am going to do a bit of investigation to see how well the layers are laminated. There might be a void, although I think my underlying (first layer) scarf wasn't quite square and was a bit off center on the scarf surface which pushed up the next scarf joint a bit. I will drill a couple holes though to have a look...
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A couple of exploratory holes later and I don't think there is a void. It's sort of hard to see in this pic but I put about 5 holes into spots that were in various locations near or far from fasteners or the joint (including one on the actual joint) and it seems like there aren't any gaps. I might do more just to make myself sleep better but I am pretty sure the bottom joint was shifted a bit up the joint on the top and that it just left a short surface on the top to adhere to. Looking from below there is a small ridge, combine that with possibly too much glue and maybe not a great centering of the second panel and I am pretty sure that's what is causing the issue.
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David Nolan over on FishyFish swears by an 80 grit flap wheel on an angle grinder for finish sanding............... Just be careful!!
This is hilarious... haha... I had some fill that wasn't quite stiff enough run into the chine flat on that seam and grabbed one of those wheels to clean it up. An hour and a whole crap-ton of dust later I had removed the material as well as cleaned up all the chine seams, and spent the next day filling all the craters I left behind. hahaha. Those wheels are no joke.
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I think everyone's on the right track here. Use your eyes .... they're great at spotting un-fair conditions. I expect a combo of taking off material at the 'hump' combined with filling on either side is the secret. A little of each. Get it right now and the final exterior sheathing will smooth things out. Same on chines, especially near any scarfing. It's OK if it's not perfect ... just tune it in and go forth. I always say, "The difference between a good wood worker and a bad is that a good one knows how to hide the defects". Each step in construction is a combination of fixing what wasn't perfect in the last step followed by performing the next step. In the end, you get a fantastic boat!
Brian
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I glassed the final strake today, they took forever and a day. I had to take down my tarp covering it because santa ana winds are supposed to be kicking up today and tomorrow, so I didn't want to have to go track it down after the blow. Question regarding epoxy and UV - how long can I leave this uncovered? I notice some of the epoxy is starting to turn yellow where it has been in the sun here and there, and I am trying to knock out the final fairing on the bottom and get it coated with graphite epoxy. I tried using titanium dioxide in epoxy on one of the sides to block UV but it's so heavy that it's really difficult to keep in solution, which means it's tough to get onto the boat. Any thoughts on how quickly/slowly UV damages epoxy would be helpful. It is also moving to fall which means the intensity of the sun is less, so that should sort of help on that front a bit.
Another question I have been wondering, I ordered some interlux primekote high body filler. Brian, you had mentioned somewhere that it 'hides a thousand sins'. I am pretty sure I have more than a thousand, but just how fair should I be trying to get before applying primer? For instance, if I miss fairing a seam of like 10oz cloth would a high body primer successfully hide that? I am hoping I can just get it it roughly dialed and then a couple coats of primer with a good sand in between and be done. I suppose I can test it on a scrap with different sized flaws and see what I can come up with. If I do primer and then find I need more fill, do I need to sand it all off before applying more fairing compound?
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This time of year, your latitude, I wouldn't worry about the UV at this point. Discoloration happens long before breakdown and you'll be adding additional coats.
The barrier primer that I referred to is Interlux Barrier Kote 404/414. It's a high-body primer. The sins that it hides are more like rough grit sanding, not unfaired fiberglass edges. I'd still fair things in, final sand with 100-grit, and use a high-body primer. The 404/414 isn't the only one. Just make sure it's compatible with epoxy and your paint system. Sometimes, you have to put on a coat of your paint system's primer on top of the thicker barrier coat primer in order for your paint to stick well. Tech support is your friend.....
Brian
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Good to know, thanks Brian. Interlux Barrier Kote 404/414 - that's the one. Back to fairing.
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The boat is looking good. Brian do you think this primer would be a good choice for painting the inside of things like the crash chamber or bed bunks? Looking for something I can use that is white and bright but not too many fumes. Getting cold here and hard to ventilate fumes
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I think others have used titanium dioxide for this purpose, as it pigments but apparently doesn't offer a lot of UV protection, so good for undersides of decks. I had a heck of a time trying to keep it from sinking out when using it but I suppose if I stirred a lot and did a lot of coats it probably would have worked fine. No fumes that way, from the research I was doing about primers the epoxy ones are scary to work with in closed spaces.
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The 404/414 stuff is stinky ... open a can and then decide if you want to apply it under decks and in crash chambers.
For under deck where it might be wet, I'd use a quality marine paint system .... but any primer that the paint system uses is fine, even if not high-body. This stuff is hidden, so don't spend extra money and time on it. Just scrape whatever glass edges and what not that you need to so that water can drain to the bilge unimpeded.
Rustoleum Marine paints (usually from Lowe's) works well and is inexpensive for inside bunks, crash chambers and under decks. I find that regular ol' spray-cans of Rustoleum works well for getting hidden and hard to reach areas painted. I've got a boat where the inside of the bunks were painted with that 20 years ago and it's still like new in there.... nice and white.
Brian
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I wanted to let you know I found an outfit in lake havasu that builds aluminum fuel tanks. There priced are so much better then others I checked into. Let me know if need there names, much closer then shipping from the east coast of up north. Dennis in pagosa springs
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I wanted to let you know I found an outfit in lake havasu that builds aluminum fuel tanks. There priced are so much better then others I checked into. Let me know if need there names, much closer then shipping from the east coast of up north. Dennis in pagosa springs
Absolutely! :) I can take a road trip and pick one up and dodge shipping potentially. I am also curious what dimensions you are ordering your tank at and what it cost you if you are interested in sharing!
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I too am driving that way to save $500 plus in shipping costs. The company name is KSH fuel products. I went with a single tank that is 8 feet long, 3 baffles, 3/16 5052 aluminum124 gallons. The cost was right around $1100. Still working with them on details. Looks like about 2-3 weeks out. BTW, also having a trailer built in Salt Lake City as well, metal craft trailers. Right around $6000. You might do yourself justice by looking for a nice used one. Not many used 28 foot trailers in Colorado. 🍻
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I too am driving that way to save $500 plus in shipping costs. The company name is KSH fuel products. I went with a single tank that is 8 feet long, 3 baffles, 3/16 5052 aluminum124 gallons. The cost was right around $1100. Still working with them on details. Looks like about 2-3 weeks out. BTW, also having a trailer built in Salt Lake City as well, metal craft trailers. Right around $6000. You might do yourself justice by looking for a nice used one. Not many used 28 foot trailers in Colorado. 🍻
I have had my eye on used trailers, a lot of what I am finding doesn't have a title and I am not sure how to get it titled. It's probably going to take me a bit more research how to go about that, there have been a few titled dual axle trailers that would have worked but I am not really ready to take one on yet as I don't really have the space. I should probably make space though and get it in the works so I am not feeling rushed to rehab it. Thanks for the info on the tank. 40 gallons and a day sounds way better than $500 shipping for sure...
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So apparently my neighbor is as sick of sanding as I am. She came by and told me that I am not to be sanding on Sundays and holidays and asked me if this was ever going to end and if I did this for a living, and I smiled and nodded and told her that I was just as sick of sanding as she was and hopefully wrapping it up soon and then promptly got back to sanding. I looked into city ordinance about it and I am able to be cited if I sustain average noise of over 55dB, which a random orbit with a 5 hp shop vac hooked up to it is well over that I would imagine. Either way, it's a good excuse to not make things perfect so I am thinking once the rain subsides I will give flipping a hull a go and give the sanding a break for a while.
Speaking of rain, the first big rain of the year came, and I thought I was good since everything is coated and cured. Of course when I went to go look at all the beautiful water cascading off my project I looked up under the edge next to the shelves/transom and the edge ply is soaked. Water wicked up around the corner and up into the wood. I am going to put some duct tape on the edge and let it overhang and hopefully it will ride out the storm and divert the rest of the water where it should go and not to never never land. There is becoming less and less places for the water to get out once it's in so I am hoping I can keep as much out as I can. There is always some challenge being outside tho, whether it's the dew point with applying epoxy or santa ana winds blowing around crap after a full boat coating. I am jealous of all you guys and your warm sheltered shops to work in. The hull is nice and clean now so there is that... :)
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I think my radio is louder than that. Hope she doesn’t become a problem for you. One way or another the end of the sanding is something to look forward to
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I think my radio is louder than that. Hope she doesn’t become a problem for you. One way or another the end of the sanding is something to look forward to
Ya, I sort of look at it like she is doing me a favor when I am not being irritated that she is getting upset that I am working in my driveway on a random Wednesday morning... I am seriously sick of sanding, it feels like that is all that I have been doing for months haha. I am sure you know the feeling. I did look into pneumatic sanders and whether or not they are quieter. I assume most of the noise though is coming from the hull reverberating with the vibration acting like a big amplifier. Either way, probably better to just be quiet for a bit instead of having the Orange fuzz threatening me to stop it or pay $$. It's a good excuse for a break and to move on to the next phase and forget this one for a bit.
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Tell her that you owe her a dinner to celebrate the end of sanding when it occurs....
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Brian, that's not a bad idea about the dinner thing, if it comes up again I might take that route. In any case, I did a little flipping yesterday to close out November. It was interesting, as the hull doesn't fit below the cranes I made, so I had to be creative and pick it up behind and in front from the u bolts. My first try I tried picking the aft end up from the transom eye and almost collapsed my gantry with the sheer load. I did a bit more reenforcement of the sheer and then tried again, this time using a strap between the eye bolts on the transom to try to pick it up closer to center and then spin it in the air and set it down again. I got it almost to the rotation point and then decided I should probably get some help, so I recruited my brother in law. We got at it and as it rotated to the weight being towards the keel I tried to control the weight transfer with a rope. Unfortunately it slipped on the strap and transferred a massive sideways load into the crane. 3 out of the 4 sheer supports were sheared off, the 4th cracked but held on. The hull settled down with the weight centered and the crane held, so it was just a matter of lowering it from that point and putting it down right side up after I stabilized the gantry. The rest was uneventful. Either way, I think this flip would have gone perfectly if I had used something like a knot in the strap to keep it from slipping instead of just looping it around the carabiner a number of times and trying to use the overlapping force to keep it there. Either way, the hull is now sitting on the cradles right side up, and a new chapter begins. Here's a couple of time-lapse videos of doing the flip.
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=pr-XLXuqqIM
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=5fCFi0Dyg4s
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Fun stuff! The carabiner used that way is kinda dangerous. I did something similar to pick straight up, even though it’s prohibited practice. That being said I have to tell on myself a bit I guess. I used 2x6 bolted through the shear decks at the transom and about 6 feet aft of the bow. I used a choke just inside the the shear deck so the center of gravity would pick it over center. I let the 2x6 skid across the floor so the boat wouldn’t touch. I was thinking it was time to install the hold back. One more tug on the chain fall and the whole boat went. It was swinging from the rafters and almost knocked me over! At least 2 feet side to side. I ended up putting the hold backs on after that.
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Hahaha... darn... Ya, that's scary. I was trying to stay well clear of the direction it was going to fall/tip so if it did go I would have at least not been directly in the path, but I can't imagine being in a small shop while doing that with nowhere to run, not that there would be time to even react probably.
The carabiners I used had a 7 kN rating the open/closed direction, and a rating of 25kN the other direction, so while I am not going to pretend to know physics well enough to estimate a dynamic load, the rating would suggest that if nothing slipped (it did) then even on the weakest side they should be able to hold 1/2 of a thousand pound hull. Idk, maybe I am not considering something else about it though. If so I would love to hear so the next time I flip a boat I don't make the same mistake. I don't have a lot of experience lifting things or using cranes, I do have a lot of engineering math under my belt but that doesn't translate well to understanding real world scenarios for dos and don'ts.
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What it boils down to is you need an eye to hold your shackle against slipping. You can see examples in my flip pics. I did break the rules when I lifted the upright hull onto the jig. But it really could t go any where.
Proper rated rigging materials is the key.
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Right. Ya, I kind of realized that after it slipped and almost brought the whole thing down haha. Either way, glad that chapter is behind me, the whole thing was really sketchy but at some point I was committed and going for it. Glad I didn't drop it and cost myself a bunch more work or worse off put someone in the hospital or ruin the hull.
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Congrats, half way there. Looks really good. Just so you know, I too have a bunch of sanding to do on my sides still.
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Hahaha... darn... Ya, that's scary. I was trying to stay well clear of the direction it was going to fall/tip so if it did go I would have at least not been directly in the path, but I can't imagine being in a small shop while doing that with nowhere to run, not that there would be time to even react probably.
The carabiners I used had a 7 kN rating the open/closed direction, and a rating of 25kN the other direction, so while I am not going to pretend to know physics well enough to estimate a dynamic load, the rating would suggest that if nothing slipped (it did) then even on the weakest side they should be able to hold 1/2 of a thousand pound hull. Idk, maybe I am not considering something else about it though. If so I would love to hear so the next time I flip a boat I don't make the same mistake. I don't have a lot of experience lifting things or using cranes, I do have a lot of engineering math under my belt but that doesn't translate well to understanding real world scenarios for dos and don'ts.
I'm sure glad nobody got hurt, and the hull survived the ordeal. You got lucky, very lucky!
But don't EVER use a carbiner or sling like that again! >:( And those eyebolts ::)
No mention of your sawhorses..
Here's some "engineering math" for you to consider. From WorkSafeBC.
(https://i.imgur.com/gGPOwsi.jpg)
BTW, I'm one of those guys mentioned in sub-section 15.6(2)..
And I have done some work in this area, professionally.
If you would like some direction next time, PM me.
I'm trying not to be an A@# about it, but my first duty is to protect the public safety.
Hope that helps!
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Hahaha... darn... Ya, that's scary. I was trying to stay well clear of the direction it was going to fall/tip so if it did go I would have at least not been directly in the path, but I can't imagine being in a small shop while doing that with nowhere to run, not that there would be time to even react probably.
The carabiners I used had a 7 kN rating the open/closed direction, and a rating of 25kN the other direction, so while I am not going to pretend to know physics well enough to estimate a dynamic load, the rating would suggest that if nothing slipped (it did) then even on the weakest side they should be able to hold 1/2 of a thousand pound hull. Idk, maybe I am not considering something else about it though. If so I would love to hear so the next time I flip a boat I don't make the same mistake. I don't have a lot of experience lifting things or using cranes, I do have a lot of engineering math under my belt but that doesn't translate well to understanding real world scenarios for dos and don'ts.
I'm sure glad nobody got hurt, and the hull survived the ordeal. You got lucky, very lucky!
But don't EVER use a carbiner or sling like that again! >:( And those eyebolts ::)
No mention of your sawhorses..
Here's some "engineering math" for you to consider. From WorkSafeBC.
(https://i.imgur.com/gGPOwsi.jpg)
BTW, I'm one of those guys mentioned in sub-section 15.6(2)..
And I have done some work in this area, professionally.
If you would like some direction next time, PM me.
I'm trying not to be an A@# about it, but my first duty is to protect the public safety.
Hope that helps!
Fair enough Jim. I admittedly deserve this, and while I considered taking this stuff down because it's not my finest moment, I left it up for now in hopes that future folks who are like me who are not versed in minimum design factors in rigging can see my mistakes and not make them again and put themselves in danger. Like I said (and I am sure you can tell), I literally have almost no real world experience with building or lifting anything of substance. This week I learned a lot of things, and in the future I can apply them.
However, might I suggest you work on your tact a bit, as typically when you open an interaction blasting someone they close up to suggestion. After your post the last thing I want to do is to ask you for help tbh. A better way to approach it is to leave off the condescending bit and just focus on the educational one. Food for thought...
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However, might I suggest you work on your tact a bit, as typically when you open an interaction blasting someone they close up to suggestion. After your post the last thing I want to do is to ask you for help tbh. A better way to approach it is to leave off the condescending bit and just focus on the educational one. Food for thought...
Json:
I really don't see where my tone was condescending - If you believe so, sorry, you did not read the information I provided in the fashion in which it was intended..
If you want to attack me for trying to help you, when you asked for the help, well, you are not really thinking it through.
Idk, maybe I am not considering something else about it though. If so I would love to hear so the next time I flip a boat I don't make the same mistake. I don't have a lot of experience lifting things or using cranes, I do have a lot of engineering math under my belt but that doesn't translate well to understanding real world scenarios for dos and don'ts.
Unfortunately, only about 10% of a message is conveyed in the words. And I thought you wanted some constructive feedback from your post. I guess that was not really the case... ::)
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Jim, I do want constructive feedback. Thanks for giving it. I am not entirely sure what sawhorses have to do with anything, and maybe it was how you used emoticons, but I am not usually a bristly person and I bristled. So if I misunderstood you then my apologies.
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Json: No problem.
Engineers have a reputation for being blunt and/or terse, and which can be interpreted as being curt. When discussing a technical topic, I do tend to shift into "engineer mode". You stating that you could do the engineering calculations probably caused me to make an unconscious assumption.
I've had meetings with a junior engineer and a draftsman, discussing particular aspects of a project - and after the discussion of a particular point, have the draftsman ask "what the hell did you guys just talk about?".
You need to understand my position - As a P.Eng., one can create a liability exposure if one is not careful. Or be accused of practicing in a jurisdiction that one is not licensed for. I read these forums for entertainment and education. And post only if I have a contribution (or a joke) to make.
What I'm calling "sawhorses" are what you referred to as "gantries". It's mostly an attempt at humor.
To me, gantries are mobile crane assemblies, and thus would have a rated capacity.
Some hints:
- Crosby makes good "rated" rigging - it is darn expensive, but their rigging guides have good application information. Here is some light reading. (https://www.thecrosbygroup.com/catalog/rigging-information/)
- You will not find a "rated" formed eyebolt. The bloody things open up just when you need them not to. It's bad juju pulling sideways on an eyebolt, even the good ones! For a hint on how to do it, look at the design of the bolted anchors used in rock climbing.
- In normal use, slings should not be used at angles less than 60deg. from the horizontal. The tension loads in the sling increase dramatically as the sling angle approaches the horizontal, when lifting.
- Use shackles not caribiners.
- Do not tie knots in slings.
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<snip>
Engineers have a reputation for being blunt and/or terse, and which can be interpreted as being curt. When discussing a technical topic, I do tend to shift into "engineer mode".
<snip>
I have this issue ... too frank, too blunt. Comes across wrong when text is all the other person is getting ... instead of my charming smile and a pat on the back while I tell them what all their problems are ... LOL :D :D
Brian
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I am laughing out here in Colorado. I have a couple friends out here who sound just like you guys. Engineers are a unique personality but they sure are handy at times. The problem is they always want to do things the right way, for me winging it is half the adventure. The key is to always have an escape route. 😂
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Am I reading the manual right that the sheer is 1/2" ply only? Is this still the case if I go wider on the sheer in the cockpit, say 10"? Could I go thicker and use 3/4" if that is the case?
Another question, I found out that west systems microfibers 403 is apparently not the same thing as microfibers referenced for strengthening fillets in the manual. I mixed 403 into my fillet mix for the stem/shelves joint and one large transom fillet before I realized the err of my ways and used real microfibers. Should I reinforce the fillets or joints with larger fillets with epoxy with actual microfibers in them or will those fillets be ok? I assume they will be good enough, but repairing a cracked fillet in those areas sounds painful. I think on the transom I used a 4" diameter fillet.
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No reason to go thicker than 1/2" ply for sheer decks, even if you go 10" instead of the prescribed 9" wide decks. ALL edges are supported in the finished boat. For example, along the pilot house and cuddy, the inner edge is supported by the pilot house and cuddy side panels. In the cockpit, all models recommend coaming along the inside edge as well (see pic below). The only difference between the models on the cockpit coaming is that the Newport and Rockport have coaming that runs about 3/4" above the top of the sheer decking, and on the Prince Rupert and Kodiak, the coaming runs higher. The structure shown below is extremely stiff and strong. The span of the decking between the underlying 5" shelves and the inward edge of the sheer decking is only 4" plus or minus ... well within the capabilities of 1/2" plywood. The bottom line? No worries ... build as described.
WEST 403 Minifibers use COTTON fibers. When the Great Alaskan plans ask for minifibers, it means FIBERGLASS minifibers ... good catch! Unfortunate product name by WEST! I'm pretty sure I say "fiberglass" together with "minifibers" in the plans. WEST also makes a mix of PLASTIC minifibers, which are used for final fairing of boats attractive to the 'wood rubbers' crowd that think all boats should look like colorful mirrors.... LOL.
Coaming on the inner edge of the cockpit sheer decks:
(https://www.glacierboats.com/images/coaming.png)
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No reason to go thicker than 1/2" ply for sheer decks, even if you go 10" instead of the prescribed 9" wide decks. ALL edges are supported in the finished boat. For example, along the pilot house and cuddy, the inner edge is supported by the pilot house and cuddy side panels. In the cockpit, all models recommend coaming along the inside edge as well (see pic below). The only difference between the models on the cockpit coaming is that the Newport and Rockport have coaming that runs about 3/4" above the top of the sheer decking, and on the Prince Rupert and Kodiak, the coaming runs higher. The structure shown below is extremely stiff and strong. The span of the decking between the underlying 5" shelves and the inward edge of the sheer decking is only 4" plus or minus ... well within the capabilities of 1/2" plywood. The bottom line? No worries ... build as described.
Makes sense, thanks Brian!
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Sorry for being so wordy...😁
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So wordy? Never! Always clearing up confusion and/or misinformation, as well as making searchable information for other builders who might wonder the same thing. Keep up the good work sir, you are doing a fine job of it. This forum is seriously such a valuable resource (and being able to ask you questions Brian in particular). It's kind of mind blowing.
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So wordy? Never! Always clearing up confusion and/or misinformation, as well as making searchable information for other builders who might wonder the same thing. Keep up the good work sir, you are doing a fine job of it. This forum is seriously such a valuable resource (and being able to ask you questions Brian in particular). It's kind of mind blowing.
Thanks ... nice to be appreciated :D For me, it's a labor of love :D
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My seams and fillets are done, and I am moving forward with much more interesting work cutting things out of wood again. I don't see it specifically mentioned other than saying things should be (at least) triple coated with epoxy, but should I be glassing things like the crash chamber bulkhead/top or the bunks (and really any interior plywood in the cuddy or pilothouse) or just coating them with epoxy? Glassing them would certainly increase the amount of work involved but I worry a bit about plywood checking in a place I can't see.
Todd's jiggle stick method worked awesome for me also, it was really great to just cut something super rough out for the template and then be able to quickly record a set of points onto it and then transpose those onto the real thing. My cc top came out pretty close first shot.
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It's mentioned in the general how-to epoxy and glass part of the manual. Interior wood can just be coated with epoxy (other than the hull and deck themselves). I suggest using sliced-ply or other smooth wood that will not check for building interior components. Peeled-ply wood like fir should be avoided or glassed to prevent checking. I consider the crash chamber and bulkheads to be part of the boat, BTW, so yes, glass the plywood for them, but it's optional on the bunks and other interior furniture etc.
Brian
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Got it, thanks.
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Once again for the slow kids please. What’s the difference between sliced and peeled plywood? I bought okume for everything above the decks
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My seams and fillets are done, and I am moving forward with much more interesting work cutting things out of wood again. I don't see it specifically mentioned other than saying things should be (at least) triple coated with epoxy, but should I be glassing things like the crash chamber bulkhead/top or the bunks (and really any interior plywood in the cuddy or pilothouse) or just coating them with epoxy? Glassing them would certainly increase the amount of work involved but I worry a bit about plywood checking in a place I can't see.
Todd's jiggle stick method worked awesome for me also, it was really great to just cut something super rough out for the template and then be able to quickly record a set of points onto it and then transpose those onto the real thing. My cc top came out pretty close first shot.
[/quote
I found it helpful to count how many points you lay out. Some colored pencils would be nice too. I get so many tracings it’s hard to tell what is what. So far I have used the same piece of doorskin for every pattern. I just hit it with the RO sander and use it again.
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Lol, I’m glad I’m not the only passenger on the short bus. If you bought okoume, your good. I soaked a piece in water for a day, dried it, and it looked new.
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My seams and fillets are done, and I am moving forward with much more interesting work cutting things out of wood again. I don't see it specifically mentioned other than saying things should be (at least) triple coated with epoxy, but should I be glassing things like the crash chamber bulkhead/top or the bunks (and really any interior plywood in the cuddy or pilothouse) or just coating them with epoxy? Glassing them would certainly increase the amount of work involved but I worry a bit about plywood checking in a place I can't see.
Todd's jiggle stick method worked awesome for me also, it was really great to just cut something super rough out for the template and then be able to quickly record a set of points onto it and then transpose those onto the real thing. My cc top came out pretty close first shot.
[/quote
I found it helpful to count how many points you lay out. Some colored pencils would be nice too. I get so many tracings it’s hard to tell what is what. So far I have used the same piece of doorskin for every pattern. I just hit it with the RO sander and use it again.
I was getting a bit confused for the same piece haha. Can't imagine using it over and over. Maybe colored pencils is the trick. Either way that is a pretty cool way of making a key of the layout of something, thanks for sharing.
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Once again for the slow kids please. What’s the difference between sliced and peeled plywood? I bought okume for everything above the decks
Slice-Ply: Large logs are sliced into thin veneers ... think of a big band saw slicing thin sheets of wood from a large log. These sheets are then trimmed, glued and stacked, then pressed and cured to produce plywood. Hardwood plywood, including all mahoganies and faux mahoganies such as Lauan, is ALWAYS sliced, not peeled.
Peeled-Ply: Logs are rotated against a knife of sorts to peel wood off the log - kinda like taking paper off of a toilet paper roll. These sheets are then FLATTENED before they are trimmed, stacked, glued and pressed etc to create plywood. The plies started out 'wrapped around a log' before being flattened. Flattening 'stretches' one face of the ply and compresses the other. Flattening stresses the wood into a non-natural shape for the ply. This works fine with modern pressing and gluing, but it's why peeled-ply plywood tends to warp and tends to 'check' (fine surface cracks) over time, especially if exposed to water or high humidity repeatedly. Peeled-ply is ONLY made from softwoods such as douglas fir, southern yellow pine, birch etc.
Either plywood is fine for boat building, but due to the tendency to check, peeled-ply plywood needs sheathing with at least a light layer of fiberglass. If building for interior boat furniture, even just 1-1/2 ounce glass on the face of the plywood will prevent checking. Sliced-ply plywood, however, doesn't tend to check. It's smoother to start with, and only requires 3-4 coats of epoxy, no fiberglass, to make it waterproof. The same applies to modern wood products that are made from fibers, coated or not, as long as the resin is at least exterior grade, e.g. exterior MDO. Fiber-based wood products do tend to be heavier though, but for a boat the size of the Great Alaskan, that is not an issue.
Brian
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After the never ending seam-fest finally wrapped up it's been nice shifting gears to build some of the other components. I have the crash chamber largely done, have been working on the front section of the sheer deck and pulpit, and have been glassing full sheets of ply to hopefully reduce time spent waiting for glue to dry on the things I cut out of them. I am using leftover LVL to create a support for the pulpit, hopefully it's sufficient to support it.
Is the sheer raised in the GA Kodiak? Should I be translating this into an offset for things like how tall the cuddy roof is above the sheer decks? I am not particularly tall so I don't think I would need say an additional 4" of headroom in there or the cabin if that would be the result of using measurements as stated, although maybe it would be nice if it wasn't going to cause issues with the wind.
Also, tangental, when I am trying to post this I am getting some 500 errors (specifically uploading a specific image, not sure why)...
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pics
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Is the sheer raised in the GA Kodiak? Should I be translating this into an offset for things like how tall the cuddy roof is above the sheer decks? I am not particularly tall so I don't think I would need say an additional 4" of headroom in there or the cabin if that would be the result of using measurements as stated, although maybe it would be nice if it wasn't going to cause issues with the wind.
The sheer on the Kodiak is about 6" higher than on the standard Great Alaskan, but the pilot house roof is at the SAME height as the standard. There was no reason to raise the roof, so to speak, on the Kodiak! Take a look at the Temporary Framing drawing in the Kodiak Addendum.
Brian
PS: Haven't heard of image upload issues ... a 500 error response is 'Server Error'. Odd. Still having the issue? If so, email the pic to me and I'll look into it. I'm at idaho dot dixons at gmail dot com
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Ok, ya, I thought it was raised, 6" is a lot. :) I will have to keep that in mind for any measurement that needs the reference of the shelves or sheer deck (sheet 13x comes to mind, the fore cuddy bulkhead, which has a vertical measurement which should be from the sheer deck I think). Just to double check I should be removing that amount from such instances right?
jb
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Ok, ya, I thought it was raised, 6" is a lot. :) I will have to keep that in mind for any measurement that needs the reference of the shelves or sheer deck (sheet 13x comes to mind, the fore cuddy bulkhead, which has a vertical measurement which should be from the sheer deck I think). Just to double check I should be removing that amount from such instances right?
jb
I just double checked... the Kodiak is 5" deeper, not 6". Look at the Temporary Framing section of the Kodiak Addendum.
Also, in the section called "Superstructure", the Kodiak addendum says to make the pilot house no taller than for the standard Great Alaskan ... which indirectly implies that both the lower pilot house side panels and the cuddy side panels will be shorter, vertically, by 5" on the Kodiak as compared to the standard. That's if you want the windows of the pilot house to be just the same as the Standard (what I recommend). You will fit the aft cuddy and aft house bulkheads to the taller hull of the Kodiak, no problem. Adjusting the house lower and cuddy side panels shorter may prevent the strong downslope of the Newport design's cuddy ... Don't feel bad if you need to adjust, vertically, the lower pilot house and cuddy side panels to get the effect that you want. And as you mention, these thoughts apply to the forward cuddy bulkhead, height of the aft cuddy bulkhead above the sheer etc. I should probably flesh out some of these details and update the Kodiak Addendum a bit. There's always something ... :) . The goal with the Kodiak is to give it a nice proportionate hull and house height. The house and cuddy will be more 'hidden in the hull' than with the standard Great Alaskan ... which looks better and is safer, more seaworthy, without adding unnecessary height to the house ... don't need more windage when parking in a slip!
Brian
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Json and others who are building the Kodiak Model. Go to our website and download the latest Kodiak Model instruction manual (dated 1-11-2020):
UPDATE:
- I added detailed information on how the 5" additional hull depth in the Kodiak Model impacts components that are sized based on the height of the boat's gunnels: Forward Cuddy Bulkhead, Aft Cuddy Bulkhead, Aft Pilot House Bulkhead, and Pilot House Lower Side Panels
- NO drawings were impacted by this update
- NOTE: The Kodiak "all files" ZIP document has been updated as well (dated 1-11-2020).
Let me know if you have any questions.
Brian
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I am measuring and marking the aft cuddy bulkhead, and it's ending up where the chine is about an inch and a half proud of the top of the stringers. I am putting it as far forward as I can (I am not really that tall plus want more cabin space) but I am thinking maybe my measurement is skewed forward due to the longer stem plus maybe my math might have a bit of a fudge because of my pulpit I put on the bow. If I move the bulkhead back about 14-18" or so then the bulkhead would sit on the stringers and the chines, but then I would have a longer cuddy than I really want. Am I going to run into issues if I don't move the bulkhead back to where it will sit flat on the stringers and chines or can I just notch it and the doubler to accommodate them (chines) and then just cut the cabin sole to fit?
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You won't run into any issues. Given similar measurements, the extended stem shouldn't be more than 3" off though, so not sure I'm getting what you're saying yet. BUT, the locations you are talking about are fine. Make sure that when you make the upper house side panels, that they do run straight. If you move the aft cuddy bulkhead too far forward, then it just means the pilot house will end up a tad narrower at the f'w'd end compared to the stern end (upper side panels that is).
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Ok, that makes sense. I am basically saying that I am aiming for the furthest fore that I can put the bulkhead, and the chines are an inch and a half above the tops of the stringers, and 14" or so aft of that point they are even, which is more or less as far aft as the specification allows (including 8" aft plus the extra 3" for the stem and a bit of margin for error). Interesting consideration for the upper side panels. I will fast forward a bit in the manual and see how that will all look with respect to where this bulkhead is positioned to go currently.
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FWIW. I used the number for the long cuddy. I had to notch the aft cuddy bulkhead lower corners for my bulkhead to sit on the stringers.
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FWIW. I used the number for the long cuddy. I had to notch the aft cuddy bulkhead lower corners for my bulkhead to sit on the stringers.
Good to know, thanks Todd...
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Making progress... I got the crash chamber done, the fore sheer deck mostly there, the anchor well deck done, the aft cuddy bulkhead blocking, and cut out the anchor well/fore cuddy bulkhead, and working on the support for the pulpit. I originally was going to not do a dropped anchor sole in the anchor area and rather make a cabinet for the rode under a flush deck but I ended up going with plans as drawn after seeing Dan's beaut and I have to say I am happy I did. It looks like it will be much more utility for working around the bow for various things and seems like it will be safer (still intending to add a rail). I also went with a full 1" thick sole in the area instead of the reenforcing member in hopes that that would be more better for the same style of winch (ez anchor puller rebel 4) that Dan used. Seems beefy.
I also finally got a roll and used actual glass tape instead of making my own and wow, what a difference working with that stuff is compared to cutting and using my own. I sure wish I had tried that earlier, would have made my work a whole lot neater and just a ton easier in general. I saved some money (probably) cutting it but the time trying to cut and then all the lose ends... ugh... oh well, live and learn.
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Well done. Love the pulpit.
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Wow .... great progress and looking great! Did you take my advice in the manual and get a Stanley brand low-angle block plane .... is that what's in the photo? :D I love mine .... very handy.
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Wow .... great progress and looking great! Did you take my advice in the manual and get a Stanley brand low-angle block plane .... is that what's in the photo? :D I love mine .... very handy.
Yup, stanley indeed... as prescribed. It's a great little plane, super useful for lots of things. I need to sharpen it actually, been a little too useful. :)
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I think I'd like to have a whole collection of little special purpose planes .... surprisingly useful
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I got the anchor well and front end largely wrapped up (minus some more fairing), pulpit installed. I made the body of the pulpit from scrap LVL laminated together and it is super stout, doesn't budge when I do pull-ups off of it, so I am pretty happy about that. Today I took a break from work and installed the aft cuddy bulkhead and cuddy sole, which went surprisingly easy. Things are moving along, I am hoping I can get at least the cuddy wrapped up by summer before the heat really sets in so I can cover it with a separate tarp or even primer it and leave it uncovered and then uncover the project easier and not have to work under a tarp that's radiating heat like crazy.
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Edit - images right side up...
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Wow ... great progress! Probably 'cuz you've got that big guy pal of yours helping out, right? :D
You're right, the pulpit is strong. That's a good thing ... think of bad wind and water yanking the boat around and as luck would have it, the anchor is stuck! Things like that happen...
Brian
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Curious? How do you know if your images are right side up? When I use my phone it looks all good on my end. I know some folks see my pics sideways. It’s got to be annoying
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Curious? How do you know if your images are right side up? When I use my phone it looks all good on my end. I know some folks see my pics sideways. It’s got to be annoying
The right side up or sideways images can be what was uploaded, but it's OFTEN the forums software. Simple Machines Forums has the odd side-effect of turning images sideways if they're too big. I think it's trying to optimize and let you see as much as possible ... but personally, I find it annoying. The best answer is to resize your images down before uploading. Usually, since it's a best compromise between image quality and size, I resize so that the longest dimension is 1024 pixels, then I upload them.
Brian
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Maybe I can shrink them somehow In Settings
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It's because there is metadata on the image taken on your phone that is not being used to display the photo properly. A photo taken on a phone (iphone for sure, not sure about other ones) have a standard way of writing the image into memory, which doesn't change when you change the orientation of your phone, and then add a metadata to the image to say which orientation it has. One way to deal with that is to open and save your phone images on a computer, because that will actually write the image data into the correct orientation as opposed to using exif data. Another way is to set up an image processing plugin on your server that essentially does that (rewrites the image data into the correct orientation) on upload if it's not already. There are plugins for simple machines forums, here is a link to a mod that will do it: https://custom.simplemachines.org/mods/index.php?mod=4087
Another option that is somewhat of a hack but also simple enough is to just take phone images in the orientation that isn't translated (ie landscape, not portrait) and upload those. They should always show up in the correct way.
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Thanks! It's been a while since I messed with mods ... totally forgot about even looking :) !
The forums are due an upgrade ... maybe before too long I'll both upgrade and install a mod for displaying images properly.
Thx
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No worries Brian, good luck updating, that's never a fun task...
Todd, another thing you can do I think is edit the image and save it on your phone, so you could for instance rotate it once, save it, then rotate it back to it's original orientation and save it again and that should apply the orientation to the image, at which point when you upload it it will appear correctly for everyone and rbob will be happy.
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It's been a lousy week at work so I played hooky today and did the initial glue-in of the side panels and some of the roof braces for the cuddy. Bunks are in, I just need to fair them, getting close to having the cuddy roughly wrapped up and moving on to the under deck layout and structure.
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Nice ... and I like the nice big access into the cuddy bunk storage :D
Brian
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I went and picked up my tank this morning from Bay City Fab in Ventura. They were great to work with, knowledgeable guys, they were able to turn this tank around once I had the design finalized in about half a week. I have purposefully held off on finishing the tank coffin until I had the tank in hand so I could make sure all fit and assumptions were correct. I am a bit torn on what I am going to do with the mounting tabs. I am going to add to the tops of the stringers, but I am not sure if I should use some big burly wood screws to screw into the additional wood on top of the stringers, or the other idea I am kicking around is to make a recess under the tabs in the additional wood where I can hold a washer and nut and use some bolts. If I did the second option I could probably make sure encapsulation was solid, but it's more work and I am honestly not sure that just tapping some super thick wood screws into the additional stringer wood without breaking the stringer's encapsulation itself would be a bad option.
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Awesome looking tank, and the vent is far away enough from the fill so no issue there.
Mounting suggestion, Could you epoxy in place threaded studs (not wood screw type) with plenty room for epoxy on the sides of studs, like 3/8" studs with 3/4" hole filled with high density filler / epoxy mix? Removal would be relatively easy.
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Awesome looking tank, and the vent is far away enough from the fill so no issue there.
Mounting suggestion, Could you epoxy in place threaded studs (not wood screw type) with plenty room for epoxy on the sides of studs, like 3/8" studs with 3/4" hole filled with high density filler / epoxy mix? Removal would be relatively easy.
Hmmm.. On today's edition of why didn't I think of that... :) Thanks rbob, that sounds as painless as wood screws but much less opportunity for water ingress. Removal as easy as twisting off some nuts. Awesome. I will probably go with that. What depth do you think I would need to put studs to have them securely in place? I wonder if I should put some nuts on the sunk half of them to give the epoxy even more to grab onto.
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Something like the Georgeon Book demonstrates:
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That tank is huge! Fill it up while the gas price is cheap.
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I agree with the Gougeon Brother's method of bedding your fasteners (whichever you choose) in epoxy. Their illustration does not, however, maintain the bedding around the bottom end of the threaded rod. That's OK since the plug of epoxy above that area prevents water from getting down to the bottom end of the rod. But I still prefer the entire threaded rod (or bolt etc) be buried in epoxy ... I like extra care for when it comes to water-proofing anything under the decks. No big deal I guess, jus' sayin'. Same goes for motor mount and other holes ... drill oversize, back-fill with epoxy, then drill right-sized. The epoxy around the hole will also provide some 'meat' that helps prevent washers and they like from compressing wood and creating water-intrusion cracks around the perimeter of the holes.
Brian
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Makes sense, thanks Brian. I put in an order for an assortment of 316 studs and nuts. I am thinking I am going to bed them strictly in the secondary wood above the actual stringers, so if that gets compromised then not whatever but better than the alternative... Either way, it's a way better solution than I was going to chase so thanks guys for your ideas. I will post some pics of the journey.
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Makes sense, thanks Brian. I put in an order for an assortment of 316 studs and nuts. I am thinking I am going to bed them strictly in the secondary wood above the actual stringers, so if that gets compromised then not whatever but better than the alternative... Either way, it's a way better solution than I was going to chase so thanks guys for your ideas. I will post some pics of the journey.
Sounds awesome!
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I got a test piece of 5052 al to test clean, spray with zinc chromate, and barrier coat. There is so much different information about painting aluminum it's tough to sort it out to even get a plan. What I finally settled on was to clean the surface spotless with acetone, spray a thin coat of zinc chromate, then coat with total boat aluminum barrier coat primer. It took me a minute to work up the courage to spray the zc (apparently super toxic stuff), but I painted the test aluminum I had, and the barrier coat hasn't dried yet but it looks like it's going to work well. Once I had sprayed the zc and it dried it was pretty apparent that that stuff is not going to come off. I am going to wait for the barrier coat to fully dry and maybe scratch and beat on it a little bit to see how durable it is, but it seems like this is going to be some good insurance for the outside of the tank at the very least.
I was planning to just paint the bottom and sides, should I consider painting the top too? I couldn't think it would hurt, but maybe not worth the effort.
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Wow ... the paint/primer looks pretty hefty stout! We had shaker cans of zinc chromate primer in the USAF and never once stopped to consider if it's poison or not ... I'm 60 and still alive :)
bd
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Ya, that’s a good point. Idk. It’s all risk. when you were spraying it in the Air Force brian how diligent were you about surface prep? Any feedback about how that affects how your results were? The results I saw from painting that square foot make me think that surface prep isn’t as big of a deal as I am making it. My thinking is get it wiped down with acetone well and then just go for it. Maybe you have some feedback in that area? As for application it doesn’t seem like it takes much. Just a light spray and ready to roll. Let me know if this is inline with your experience.
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Json,
Just my 2c.
I have painted a few aluminum things (very few) but I can attest to using the aluma-prep and alodine conversion coating to being the best. I painted an aluminum drift boat for a customer over 30 years ago and it still looks new, of course it is stored inside but I used the acid cleaner and alodine conversion coat before applying epoxy primer and single stage enamel paint.
I coated my aluminum fuel tank with raptor after cleaning it with a scotchbrite and some cleaner (cant remember!) and thought it would be bullet proof, after pulling up the floor a couple years later most of it had flaked off... It may have been the raptor liner not being able to expand/contract with the aluminum but it was a failure. We did some repair work on my aluminum boat, sandblasted where it was pitted and my son blew it off and applied "allmetal" filler and sanded it smooth, I knew it needed to be cleaned with the aluma-prep first so I checked the adhesion with a putty knife and every patch easily came off so we re-blaste the spots and cleaned with aluma-prep before applying the filler. You must clean the aluminum of the oxidation which is mostly invisible, rinse with water, blow it dry and immediately apply whatever product you are using without hesitation...
If you try cleaning the backside of your test piece with aluma-prep, rinse and dry you will find the aluminum feels sticky which is clean clean clean, and paint will stick to it.
I am a fan of epoxy primer, not so much of a fan for etching primer. For etching primer to be effective it has to be sprayed on wet or it wont etch and it runs easily, spraying it on dry does nothing for "etching". 2-part epoxy is king in my opion. I will post a link for the aluminum cleaner, open up the technical process document below it and it will have the info you need. The other link for the epoxy primer you will find very useful, they also have epoxy primer high build that is underwater rated polyamide cured epoxy.
https://www.aircraftspruce.com/catalog/cspages/alumiprep.php (https://www.aircraftspruce.com/catalog/cspages/alumiprep.php)
https://tamcopaint.com/collections/primers/products/dta-epoxy (https://tamcopaint.com/collections/primers/products/dta-epoxy)
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Rbob - thanks a bunch for your details on your experiences. I considered the alodine and alumiprep, I think I will get some and try it on my test piece like you say.
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Json,
Just to make your head spin, most aluminum tanks are not treated or have any special coating and they seem to have a good reputation for longevity. (someone may correct me) I like the way Dan Boccia installed his aluminum tank, although I am not sure what prep he did, but applying uhmw runners so no crevice corrosion can occur and allowing water / air to flow under the tank is a first class install. Crevice corrosion is failure waiting to happen.
There are others that have installed aluminum tanks so maybe someone will chime in and offer advice.
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Ya, my head has been spinning for weeks about all of this haha. :) I love how Dan installed his tanks, and would like to do the same with mine, but the fabs wouldn't sign off engineering wise about hanging them. They also had to go and drop it in there that 5200 doesn't stick well to aluminum either, so wherever you bed in 5200 you are creating a crevice corrosion opportunity (like seating supports across the bottom). But then I wrestle with painting because unless I do it perfectly I am basically creating a giant opportunity for crevice corrosion to happen in and of itself if paint flakes or separates and moisture finds it's way in.
I made a coffin for the tank that I don't expect water to get into. I put a drain plug in the aft end that I intend to open each time I put the boat in storage or get ready to take out to check for moisture ingress and/or fuel leaks. If I do the full cover 5200 seating for bottom supports that others have mentioned (djeffrey and Dan, among others) then I think I probably won't have a problem for a long time, but who knows. I guess maybe ability to determine failure early is more insurance maybe than doing things exactly right. I just struggle with 150+ gallons of fuel on the loose potentially.
And at the end of the day, like a lot of other things on this project, I am likely just overthinking it and could really get 80% of the results in 20% of the time if I just realized it and moved forward. A boat that was 80% of perfect would be pretty good I think...
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Just found a great article on bonding to aluminum:
https://www.permabond.com/materials_bonded/how-to-bond-aluminum/ (https://www.permabond.com/materials_bonded/how-to-bond-aluminum/)
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Json- I built a tank coffin on my boat a well. Instead of a drain plug I installed a hose fitting. Attached to it is a clear piece of hose that has the other end fastened to the top of the coffin bulkhead. It acts as a sight glass so that I can see if there is any liquid in the coffin. If I want to drain it I take the top of the hose and point it down to the bilge area. That was part of my “over thinking”. Seems like a good idea.
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Json- I built a tank coffin on my boat a well. Instead of a drain plug I installed a hose fitting. Attached to it is a clear piece of hose that has the other end fastened to the top of the coffin bulkhead. It acts as a sight glass so that I can see if there is any liquid in the coffin. If I want to drain it I take the top of the hose and point it down to the bilge area. That was part of my “over thinking”. Seems like a good idea.
That's a cool idea, I use sight glasses like that when I brew beer, that would be handy if it was highly visible for sure.
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I have the cuddy largely wrapped up at this point, there are some polish things to do but I will get to them a little here and a little there. I am getting ready to install the tank, and have been trying to get over to home depot to get 5200 and some other odds and ends for that. I got more ply today and cut out the decking for the pilothouse section, which fits pretty well. I am thinking instead of nailers I am probably just going to try the cured bead of epoxy that was mentioned somewhere in these forums. The Gougeon brothers method for setting bolts worked awesome, I put some fibers in it for extra assurance, but I doubt that they will ever be necessary. They seem rock solid. A couple kicked off and bubbled all over the place so I had to dig out the bubbles and re-pour, which is a good brush up about using regular hardener in hot temps, that stuff kicks quick when it starts semi-hot. Good not to have a giant cup of it.
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I have been wrapping up a lot of odds and ends, and things are starting to feel like they are moving again a bit. The under deck stuff seems like it takes forever and a day, but I feel fairly good about what came together.
I hemmed and hawed about installing my tank for a long bit, it's gigantic and I just kept envisioning 180 gallons of fuel on the loose. In the end I went with the zinc chromate and primer, which seems to be pretty solid, as I have moved the tank around on things quite a bit after it was primed and none of the primer chipped off on contact points, just some minor scuffs. I put both some longitudinal supports under the bends on the bottom of the tank as well as 5 vertical supports on each side (including the end blocks) so hopefully that's sufficient to keep stress from breaking the tank from repeated flexing and warping. I ended up using 4200 to install it because I had the angle welded in to keep the tank from moving fore and aft, so the adhesive was largely a formality aside from providing a solid platform for the tank to rest on. If I ever have to replace this tank I am hoping that I am thankful for that decision.
I went the pool noodle route as well, it cost me about $130 for all the noodles to fill under the ph deck between the dollar store ones and target. Target's noodles were a better deal at $2 from the dimensions they gave online but when I showed up to buy them the $2 ones were 2 different sizes, so who knows and whatever. I think for the under cockpit part of my boat I am going to shoot for more watertight accessible storage with drain plugs, as it's more utility and probably more buoyant than pool noodles, just takes more planning and more work.
Got the pilothouse decking installed, the windshield cut and fit. I am probably going to try to fab and install the pilothouse aft bulkhead with the windshield and roof supports all at the same time so I can try to minimize heat warping.
I also got a killer super quiet pneumatic sander (aircat 6700) and a 50' hose for my shop vac so I can put the noisy part of my sander in my garage and not annoy the neighbors. I might need a bigger compressor going forward but this sander is night and day better about how low profile and light it is compared to my motorized one, which is bulky and can't fit really anywhere but is pretty good for flat or open spaces.
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Looks like you're making GREAT progress! ;D ;D ;D Did you really mean 180 gallons ... or is it 108? Where does the f'w'd end of the tank start and where's the aft end end? It's best to keep the fuel CG near the aft pilothouse bulkhead if you can. If you've got it forward of that, it may be a good idea to offset it by locating batteries at the transom and/or moving the CG of the outboard further back with a jack plate or motor bracket. I can do the math if I know the size of your tank for sure, boat length (28 ft), and a measurement of where the f'w'd and aft ends of your tank is ... measured from either bow or stern as long as I know which.
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Thanks Brian, it's 185 gallons, 10' long, centered 12' 3" forward of the center of the motor mount on the transom (so fore end is 17' 3" and aft end 7' 3"). My hull is actually about 29' long, I am not sure exactly anymore since I put the pulpit on, but if memory serves I was just over or right on 29', as I was able to stretch my bottom assembly and stringers for the extra foot or so when I was installing those. I did install the tank slightly forward of where I was going to install it originally because I am going to be sticking a pretty large bait tank somewhere in the cockpit (maybe over the aft end of the fuel tank or 9' or so fore of the top of the transom), so that is another 6-900 lbs that I was trying to balance into the equation.
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Really coming together. Nice work
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I got my house walls in place but not finished, and tried to keep the window layout to the Prince Rupert, which other than the sloped forward windshield and the full length splash rails I am going to try to follow fairly closely. I found a company that's just up the road here that does windows (Mark Plastics), and got a quote for those which was more expensive than I had thought (probably reasonable for 14 windows) but I have seen a lot of people who swear by his product in contrast to DSG and Motion, so I might get another quote from Wynne too but will probably go with Mark. I can physically go down there and have a look and talk to him too which is nice.
I have the roof laminated up and glassed, trying to find time and help to hoist it on top of the boat to mark out the ph outline. I ended up laminating 6mm and 4mm okoume, eventually I want to put an aluminum tube helm up top so I figured I should enforce it a bit. I also wrapped some glass around a corny keg and made a cylinder for the curb visor I am going to make, that was simple enough and seems solid. I might back it with some biax, I think I have some laying around.
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Adding more windows probably stiffens the upper side panels a bit. More wood left over throughout the piece. I think you might be first to choose this option but I’m not sure. Congratulations on the Progress. You too seem to have passed me up! I spend tons of time fussing/fairing where it probably really doesn’t matter.
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Great progress, you will be passing us all up at this rate..
Looking good!
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Thanks guys. I am kind of trying to race to get the roof on and front 2/3 of the boat painted outside so I can rearrange how I have to cover and tarp for rain and sun, etc before the weather changes. I am pretty tired of working under the tarp so am looking forward to working in a semi-finished pilothouse instead that has windows that open and hopefully doesn't feel like working in an oven. There is plenty of tedious time consuming work waiting for me when I get there lol... :)
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Outstanding! Your really making progress!
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It's definitely challenging to be working outside, but hang in there ... you're an inspiration to others and are doing great!
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On the good side there is plenty of fresh air!
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On the good side there is plenty of fresh air!
- there is certainly that, except under that dang tarp...
I got help from my brother in law yesterday to throw the roof blank up on top of the ph, man, pretty unruly for 2 of us but we managed. This morning I was able to cut the roof out, and now it feels almost manageable by myself, although maybe I don't want to be climbing ladders carrying a 9'x7' piece of plywood by my lonesome. Either way, flipping it back over by myself was much easier now that it's cut back. This week I am going to give way to my artsy side and have a shot at the visor.
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I don't know of anybody that can handle 2 to 2-1/2 sheets of plywood easily! That's the last Big piece of wood that you have to handle...
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I am making some progress on the visor. I haven't quite done the corners yet but I think they will work out fairly well, I can visualize the fit. I have the fore, aft, forward sides tacked in, maybe tonight or tomorrow I will begin the futz with the forward curves. I went a couple inches shorter than the designs call for, my ph is a few inches taller than design so rather than put a sail on the boat I just scaled back a hair.
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I did the front corners yesterday evening, and I think they turned out better than I had thought they would. I cut them to just oversized, then did a butt joint with the side piece and a slightly overlapping joint with the front. I put a healthy dose of fillet epoxy mix on the backs of each one where they intersected with the wood, and this morning sanded off the front overlap. I think it turned out very good for the rough draft of this, a couple of touch ups with some microspheres and another layer of 10oz over the top and I think it will be very fair. The instructions in the manual worked pretty well.
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That looks great! probably easier that what I have done.
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That looks great! probably easier that what I have done.
Idk about easier, I am not done fairing it yet :D Plus I am not sure how I am going to manage filling the inside yet.
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That looks great! probably easier that what I have done.
Idk about easier, I am not done fairing it yet :D Plus I am not sure how I am going to manage filling the inside yet.
Id suggest fairing compound and a layer of glass, just need a perfect size fillet tool (make one), let fairing compound set up till almost firm and lay the glass right into it and smooth with gloved fingers.
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Id suggest fairing compound and a layer of glass, just need a perfect size fillet tool (make one), let fairing compound set up till almost firm and lay the glass right into it and smooth with gloved fingers.
Not a bad idea, thins out toward the top, I was going to run the putty straight off the back of the faces onto the curves at least, maybe cut some slivers of ply and bed them in fairing compound, but continuing the curve with a fillet isn't a bad idea at all. The glass on top to smooth it all out is a great idea because I can't get in there with a sander at all, I just gotta figure out how to time that right with my wife telling me I need to [insert thing for little kids here]... I guess I have a time window and I just have to time it right haha .
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Rbob's fillet to fill it idea was awesome, worked like a charm. Thanks Bob!
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I am using the roof to test out Interlux Prime-Kote 404/414 high build primer and what I can/should utilize it for. I have a sort of informal goal to have most of the sun-exposed regions of the boat painted by the end of November so I don't need to worry as much about them, so this is a good first step in that direction. I put the first coat on last night, and purposefully did some different levels of fairing/detail work to see just what a high body primer can hide. With one coat that I haven't yet sanded I was really impressed by the coverage. It rolled out pretty easy, and was thick enough to get a good coat on everything. I didn't tip it because I intend to multi-coat and sand, so it wasn't real smooth, but it was good enough and definitely did a good job of sufficiently coating the roof. With a single coat it obscured any spots that weren't sanded perfectly smooth from bumps in the epoxy coats (I mostly just took off the high spots before priming), it did not hide the crap job I did at fairing the glass line down the middle of the roof or the couple of spots where I floated the glass off the ply with too much epoxy. It also didn't obscure any unfaired tape seams, but that was expected.
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Looks good to me. Who will ever look any closer than you right now?
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I think it looks pretty good too. I like the 404/414 (used to be 'Barrier Kote') ... it hides a thousand sins!
Brian
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Looks good to me. Who will ever look any closer than you right now?
Nobody who's opinion I care about unless they feel like manning a sander for a work day in my garage. ;D
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After a bit more research for the next primer installment I changed things up a bit. I was reading on the interwebs that a high build coating is supposed to be "built up", and that basically you want to roll it thin (or spray it thin) and wait for the reducer to flash off and then reapply over and over to build up a sufficient thickness to work with. So I changed a couple things up, namely I used the max amount of reducer in the paint, pouring only small amounts into the roll pan and covering the rest, and also switched from a 'hair' type of roller to a finish foam roller from home depot. What a difference. I thought coat 1 was great, coat 2 came out greater. Roller marks were reduced or eliminated, I just walked around and around the visor applying thin coats and by the time I returned again the solvent had evaporated and I could apply another coat. This is going to be much easier to sand, because this stuff is pretty rock hard, so less peaks and valleys is bueno. If things look good after sanding I will move onto alexseal's finish primer and topcoat. I ordered a newly released additive for alexseal last night (A5018) that is supposed to remove the need to tip (it causes bubbles to immediately pop and the paint to flow out like glass off the roller) so we will see, not sure if I will wait for that or forge ahead.
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I've heard good things about Alexseal and the no-tip finish turning out great. I didn't know it needed a special additive though. Looking forward to your results and pix ...
bd
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I've heard good things about Alexseal and the no-tip finish turning out great. I didn't know it needed a special additive though. Looking forward to your results and pix ...
bd
The additive is brand new according to Andy on boatworks today, and he described it as a 'game changer' for DIY, so I figured I would give it a shot. :)
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I've heard good things about Alexseal and the no-tip finish turning out great. I didn't know it needed a special additive though. Looking forward to your results and pix ...
bd
The additive is brand new according to Andy on boatworks today, and he described it as a 'game changer' for DIY, so I figured I would give it a shot. :)
Awesome!
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Some before and after pics. I learned a lot here, definitely some dos and don'ts for the rest of the boat. My roll only additive didn't come in time for this, so I went ahead and rolled with no tipping without it. It came out ok, I certainly could have benefited from bubbles just popping, because they are hard to get to go away completely with just a roller, especially when the solvent starts to flash off. I also mixed up a little too much paint, and it's expensive stuff, so I tried to get it all on the piece and ended up with a couple small sags as a result (doh). Lesson learned, just throw the extra paint in the trash. Also, my first attempt at sanding the high body primer was with a low grit, something like 60 or 80 and I didn't make much of a dent (that stuff is hard as rocks). I moved to 220 and it sanded much easier, and man, it gets smooth. Next time I get into some priming I am going to use a guide coat I think to make sure I get it super smooth, because small flaws do project quite a bit into the finish, and also if it's got valleys and whatnot you can't really get at it with a sander so well for things like finish primer which is really really thin. Either way, good to know what level of fairing is going to be required moving forward. Bad to know how much work that's gonna take lol.
I think the roof turned out pretty good, maybe a 3ft - 5ft finish, hopefully I can get it installed this weekend and get moving on the next chapter.
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I think it's turning out fantastic. The finish looks perfect from here!
bd
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I used alexseal and love it. Bubbles are an issue if you don’t thin properly. Would love to hear more about this new additive.
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I used alexseal and love it. Bubbles are an issue if you don’t thin properly. Would love to hear more about this new additive.
I couldn't find it on Alexseal's website, but here is a link for it on the store I bought it and the rest of my paint from:
https://www.goldcoastmarine.com/products-details/813/alexseal-a5018-topcoat-501-roll-additive.html
And here is the boatworks today video where I saw it:
https://www.boatworkstoday.com/videos/alexseal-changing-the-game-for-diy-boat-painting/
Neither of them have that much information but I think Andy on boatworks today is going to be getting some on that hull in the video pretty soon if he hasn't already, I haven't looked. I think my shipment should be here any time, but I don't really have anything to paint any time soon so... science is going to have to wait haha. I did talk to the rep at gold coast marine and he said from what he has heard it's pretty amazing stuff and has been selling like crazy.
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Wow, painted and looking amazing! I need to check out Alexseal paint all I hear is good stuff about it.
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Wow, painted and looking amazing! I need to check out Alexseal paint all I hear is good stuff about it.
I have been dealing with Luke down at Gold Coast Marine in Ft. Lauderdale (actually ordering online and then they call you, their website is pretty hokey). He has been helpful and they have been reliable getting my supplies to me in a pretty timely manner.
Cap's on! I got my brother to come by this morning to help me put the roof on, looks pretty awesome. I have also been working on the bulwarks, I used 12mm aquatek glassed 10oz on the inside, and was able to make the bends, although it was a struggle. I also (re)found a pretty giant flat spot on the port side of the hull that I am going to have to fair in, the benefit (or drawback depending on how you look at it) of using 12mm is it bends fair, so my sheer gets put under a microscope now. I have a longboard on the way haha. At least the rest of it looks pretty close.
To install the roof, we just lined it all up, made some alignment marks, then propped it up on a couple scraps of 4x4 and whatnot, and then spread the glue and lowered it down and made final tweeks. Went really easy. I also put a #6 x 1 1/4" 316 fastener into the longitudinal supports 1/3 of the way down each one (total of 4) and used microfibers so hopefully that will keep it together when I am walking up there.
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Awesome!
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Nice
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Great looking job on your roof!!!!
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I test fit some cockpit sole cutouts that I have been working on tonight. It feels good to have a surface to walk on that's above the stringers. I was also looking at cockpit size vs bait tank, I am thinking 80 gallon double from pacific edge is going to fit the bill. I originally was looking at 120 gallons but it's just kind of obnoxiously big and 10 scoops is a bit of a stretch, plus the extra 350 lb+ is also a lot. Either way there is still a ton to do under the deck but good to see the end for a minute to get a feel for what's to come.
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It’s pretty awesome not to have to step over the stringers every in and out. My deck is still loose with tons of stuff to do under, but it’s easy to pull them out
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It’s pretty awesome not to have to step over the stringers every in and out. My deck is still loose with tons of stuff to do under, but it’s easy to pull them out
Ya, no doubt. Out of sight, out of mind. :) I am going to try to not forget that there is a bunch of stuff to do under there...
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I have been back in fairing never never land, there was a lot of it after adding bulwarks. The starboard one is not quite done, but the port one is glassed and faired. I am getting close to being ready to prime and paint the port side which is exciting. I added a lot of work for myself because I didn't scarf the bulwarks or use backing on the butt joint, so as could be expected it stuck out like a sore thumb (or maybe more appropriately looked like a broken thumb). I lined them up as best I could tho and glued them, and then glassed the outside and just sanded and filled until it looked pretty fair. Note to self - take the extra hour or 2 next time and just scarf the pieces... I also had a giant flat spot on the port side that took me quite a few passes to get filled in. I went over it all with some cloth and once it's primed no one will be the wiser. In between that torture I have been working on finishing up under the cockpit sole, I keep going back and forth on what I want to do there but I think I have settled on leaving a lot of unutilized space for now and potentially coming back to use it later. I am going to build in a pretty large fish/ice box between the stringers in front of the bilge and also a small sea chest for my thru-hulls, but other than that I am just going to put in some glass tube in the limbers that I can put plugs in so that I have some (hopeful) protection in the event that I get holed. I also have the cockpit coaming cut out and ready to install so with all of that I can almost finally see what this thing is going to look like, which feels pretty good.
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Also something that I was meaning to throw in here for other's benefit, I got some talc to add to fairing mixes after doing some research, and it seems like it really helps it come off the knife smoother and stick better to the boat rather than just want to peel off. My mix now is a bit of cabosil, about twice as much talc, and then thicken with Q cells or microspheres (I bought 10 lbs of the 3m ones), and it feels pretty close to system three's kwikfair. It does apparently soak up water which isn't great but... so does plywood, so as long as I encapsulate it the same I am not really worried about it. It also sands like a dream.
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That last picture really shows how big the boat is. Looks amazing though.
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Also something that I was meaning to throw in here for other's benefit, I got some talc to add to fairing mixes after doing some research, and it seems like it really helps it come off the knife smoother and stick better to the boat rather than just want to peel off. My mix now is a bit of cabosil, about twice as much talc, and then thicken with Q cells or microspheres (I bought 10 lbs of the 3m ones), and it feels pretty close to system three's kwikfair. It does apparently soak up water which isn't great but... so does plywood, so as long as I encapsulate it the same I am not really worried about it. It also sands like a dream.
True ... use what you want in your fairing mix. WEST, I believe, even sells paper fiber (403 Microfiber) ... which soaks up water too. Just encapsulate in epoxy and no problem ...
Thanks for the good info on the talc ... :D
bd
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Looking fantastic, it’s going to be an awesome looking boat
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I really like the overall look of your wheelhouse and how the bulwark blends in
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I really like the overall look of your wheelhouse and how the bulwark blends in
Thanks Chuck, it's certainly turning out as good as I could have hoped for. Most of the design considerations are the stock PR ones from the manual, with the exception of some small tweaks to measurements and the forward leaning windshield instead of the back leaning. Otherwise what Brian spells out has turned out quite well, I am pretty stoked.
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I really like the overall look of your wheelhouse and how the bulwark blends in
Thanks Chuck, it's certainly turning out as good as I could have hoped for. Most of the design considerations are the stock PR ones from the manual, with the exception of some small tweaks to measurements and the forward leaning windshield instead of the back leaning. Otherwise what Brian spells out has turned out quite well, I am pretty stoked.
I really like how it's turning out too ... great aesthetics, great balance between bulwark versus the house visor etc. It's gonna be a great boat!
Brian
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I really like the overall look of your wheelhouse and how the bulwark blends in
Thanks Chuck, it's certainly turning out as good as I could have hoped for. Most of the design considerations are the stock PR ones from the manual, with the exception of some small tweaks to measurements and the forward leaning windshield instead of the back leaning. Otherwise what Brian spells out has turned out quite well, I am pretty stoked.
I really like how it's turning out too ... great aesthetics, great balance between bulwark versus the house visor etc. It's gonna be a great boat!
Brian
Aside from aesthetics, is there an advantage/purpose for the bulwark vs. no bulwark?
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Aside from aesthetics, is there an advantage/purpose for the bulwark vs. no bulwark?
Great question!
The most seaworthy version of the Great Alaskan and/or the Kodiak, have the bulwark and high coaming around the cockpit (running just past the f'w'd part of the dry well). Why? More degrees of heel before water can enter the boat. Or, another way to look at it is that water must rise higher on the side of the hull before water can enter the boat. Think of a boat adrift and fishing, rolling hard to one side due to steep swells, and then a bigger than average wave strikes the boat on the low side ...
Since this boat is designed for camping and fishing, it is expected that it'll see a lot of slow operation and/or just plain being adrift out on the big water. This is why the boat has flared sides that help it bob up and over waves as they approach from most any direction. Bulwarks help keep waves and water off the forward 2/3rds of the hull, and the coaming around the cockpit guide any such water draining aft over the side or at least into the scupper-drained dry well. The bulwark also makes it safer to walk along the sheer deck to get forward for whatever reason... anyone who's done this on a slippery boat in a steep and unpredictable chop will appreciate this. If you don't prefer the bulwark, then you could instead put a minor toe rail along the outer edge of the sheer just by trimming your side panels 3/4" high or so when you perform that part of the build (fillet and round it, then glass right over it when you glass the sheer deck to the sides).
The only real downside to the coaming and bulwark is the extra time (and a minor cost) that it takes to add them to the boat ... no big deal in the long run. In any case, lots of trade-offs ... you have to think about what you want to use your boat for and in what conditions, then make your decisions. Style and the 'look' of the boat is a big deal. Having handrails f'w'd have to be fit inside the bulwark and can make the walking-room on the sheer deck slightly less etc.
Brian
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Aside from aesthetics, is there an advantage/purpose for the bulwark vs. no bulwark?
The only real downside to the coaming and bulwark is the extra time (and a minor cost) that it takes to add them to the boat ... no big deal in the long run. In any case, lots of trade-offs ... you have to think about what you want to use your boat for and in what conditions, then make your decisions. Style and the 'look' of the boat is a big deal. Having handrails f'w'd have to be fit inside the bulwark and can make the walking-room on the sheer deck slightly less etc.
Brian
I was thinking for the handrail issue with the bulwark. I might add a 3/4"x 6"+- thick piece on the outside where the wheelhouse starts run it to the bow and have it line up with the lower edge of the rub rail extending to the stern. Then maybe add a 3/4" x 2" to the inside of the bulwark. That would give me about 1 7/8" flat to secure my railing base plates. probably have to have them custom made to work.
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Aside from aesthetics, is there an advantage/purpose for the bulwark vs. no bulwark?
Great question!
The most seaworthy version of the Great Alaskan and/or the Kodiak, have the bulwark and high coaming around the cockpit (running just past the f'w'd part of the dry well). Why? More degrees of heel before water can enter the boat. Or, another way to look at it is that water must rise higher on the side of the hull before water can enter the boat. Think of a boat adrift and fishing, rolling hard to one side due to steep swells, and then a bigger than average wave strikes the boat on the low side ...
Since this boat is designed for camping and fishing, it is expected that it'll see a lot of slow operation and/or just plain being adrift out on the big water. This is why the boat has flared sides that help it bob up and over waves as they approach from most any direction. Bulwarks help keep waves and water off the forward 2/3rds of the hull, and the coaming around the cockpit guide any such water draining aft over the side or at least into the scupper-drained dry well. The bulwark also makes it safer to walk along the sheer deck to get forward for whatever reason... anyone who's done this on a slippery boat in a steep and unpredictable chop will appreciate this. If you don't prefer the bulwark, then you could instead put a minor toe rail along the outer edge of the sheer just by trimming your side panels 3/4" high or so when you perform that part of the build (fillet and round it, then glass right over it when you glass the sheer deck to the sides).
The only real downside to the coaming and bulwark is the extra time (and a minor cost) that it takes to add them to the boat ... no big deal in the long run. In any case, lots of trade-offs ... you have to think about what you want to use your boat for and in what conditions, then make your decisions. Style and the 'look' of the boat is a big deal. Having handrails f'w'd have to be fit inside the bulwark and can make the walking-room on the sheer deck slightly less etc.
Brian
Thanks Brian. That was a great explanation. I like the idea of it. Specially the extended version Grady300 made that keeps the same smooth sheer angle. They aren't popular on the gulf coast of Florida. Mostly just nice giant bow rails.
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Primed the port side, 2 passes with interlux primekote 404/414 - going to sand and hopefully paint this week. Looking more boatier every day...
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Looking great! Love to see a picture what your doing on the stern!
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So what's your feedback on the 404/414? Roll and tip or spray? Does it hide a thousand sins as advertised?
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Sweet
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Looking great! Love to see a picture what your doing on the stern!
I haven't got much done there, I am sort of leaving that part until last so that I can step in and out easier. That said, I am planning on doing a euro-style stern with a curved transom and flat platform with a bomar aluminum hatch for accessing the bilge and lower mounts on that platform. I might make a small drywell like you outlined in your transom mock up but haven't really decided yet. I did put some pieces of ply to make a flat mount for the motor/bracket but that's about as far as I have made it. I am also going to get a bob's 6" bracket I think and install that so that it's easier to adjust the height of my motor and also so I can wrap up and paint the transom and make it easier when I get my outboard to mount it.
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So what's your feedback on the 404/414? Roll and tip or spray? Does it hide a thousand sins as advertised?
I rolled it, no tip, using the fine foam rollers from home depot, which apply it pretty evenly. I did 2 coats. It does hide a thousand sins, but it also shows all the ones that it doesn't hide lol. It sands super smooth. I am using a guide coat which is really helping me get it dialed in. It just takes fooooooooorever... I didn't do a great job fairing this tape seam but I was able to sand it out fairly well. So it's kind of nice for someone who is not very good at fairing like myself. :) That said, I don't think I would spray it unless I was very very confident in my safety equipment. It's extremely noxious stuff, stinks all to high hell. I am sure my neighbors love me right now. At least the lady who had an issue with me sanding moved. :D
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It looks like it's got plenty of body ... if it sands smooth easily, then it's great stuff...
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A month later and no paint. Lots of this and that though. My main focus has been on the stuff under the cockpit sole, and I think I am largely wrapping that up. I have been slowly studying and buying the parts for my bait system plus my transducer, and fitting them on arrival. I got both of the thru hulls cut and treated, and have been running wiring to all of that as well. I am pretty happy with how my below deck layout has progressed, although hindsight has definitely shown that this is my first shot at this. I originally wanted to run my fuel fill to the aft end, so I had my tank fab'd for all the access through the rear. But once I thought about it for a while I didn't want to dump fuel on the ramp on a steep pull or drop, since the tank is 10 feet long and the top end could be above where the fill lies, so I decided to run it to the port side. Which means the hose runs a bit wompy and meanders through other things. Oh well. I also thought that my vents were 1/2" hose, and I bought 25' of A1-15 hose for it, but then learned it was 5/8" ID when I tried to run it. So if anyone is looking for any fuel hose for cheap(er) hit me up, I have an extra 25' of it. Either way, I think I have my bait system dialed in, and running electrical makes this project start to feel more boaty than woodie.
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You are making good progress, not that fun working with head down in a hole, my knees are sore thinking about it.
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My birthday came early, hopefully with this in hand my motivation will be through the roof... Now I gotta figure out how the hell I am going to get this out of the back of my truck. I suppose that's not a bad problem to have. :)
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It's not hard to get out ... just roll it off the end of the tailgate! :D :D
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300 HP She is going to be a screamer!!!! Sweet
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Suffering from motor envy! wow thats a big one!
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Suffering from motor envy! Wow that's a big one!!
...Reminds me of the manager in The Office, but I won't mention that :)
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Ha... my son said the same thing when he got home from school right now... "Wow, that's a big one!"
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I also got some paint on the boat before I picked up this motor, and wow, when applied right this alexseal paint is freaking amazing. Watching Andy and his boatworks today episodes on applying it helped a lot, I still put it on heavy in spots (lesson learned) but where I put it on correct thickness and with enough thinner it turned to glass, and the bubble popping additive is absolutely amazing too. Going to go for the full gusto and sand each coat and apply super thin, at least 3 coats total.
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Alexseal paint looks amazing, cant wait to see more.
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WOW, Nice paint job
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That Alexseal is nice. I used Awlgrip on my Widebody, but if I build another boat I'll definitely be using Alexseal - it looks awesome. That's cool that you don't have to tip it off.
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More alexseal pics... I think I am getting the hang of it. While I was sanding today I was remembering back to when I started this project and was like 'there is a lot of sanding, how much sanding could that really be?'... Welcome to reality me. :)
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Looks awesome
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Wow! You're doing an amazing job on the paint job! AND you're building outdoors ... a real inspiration to others!
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Outstanding, good choice of paint. What color? Can’t tell if it’s white or grey
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Outstanding, good choice of paint. What color? Can’t tell if it’s white or grey
It's kingston gray. I went back and forth on flashy or neutral, ended going with the neutral option. Maybe the next boat I build will get the fighting lady yellow paint. :) I am going to put a bootstripe on it though, not sure if just white or a combination of capri blue and white, still sorting that out.
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Your paintwork looks amazing! Definitely an inspiration.
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Thanks, still trying to get the hang of this site.
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Been a minute since I posted an update here. I have been giving the painting a break, waiting for the wind to back off some. In the meantime I have been tying up a lot of loose ends.
I have been working some on the pilothouse, trying to make a dent before the heat becomes oppressive. Working out ergonomics and stuff is a bit tricky, I think what I came up with is going to work pretty well though. It seems like there is always something I ordered that I am waiting to arrive so that I can do a measurement to make sure I don't have to backtrack, so slow going.
I am also working to try to wrap up the under cockpit sole stuff, which seems endless. I have a list of about 15 things that need to get finished before I can glue in the sole, so that will be a big milestone when it happens.
I started my window order, going with Wynne (dealt with Cory, nice guy). They were almost half the cost of a local guy here who I was thinking to go with, who apparently didn't want my business or something (flaky/too busy?), so kind of glad that that worked out to make me explore other options. ETA on windows is 8 weeks.
My trailer is ready, but when the builder was delivering out here a couple weeks ago I was on a trip out at the colorado river, and a miscommunication led to him not bringing it out here. Sounds like it's another month out until they are delivering out here again, which is ok but also kind of holding me up. Oh well, how it goes sometimes I guess.
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Nice seat... say, is that a 4" jack plate? Got a link for that? It looks really nice and compact, light weight.
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Nice seat... say, is that a 4" jack plate? Got a link for that? It looks really nice and compact, light weight.
It is, it's made by bob's machine shop... 4", manual but upgradeable to hydraulic later if I choose to go down that road.
https://bobsmachine.com/product/4-heavy-duty-setback-versa-series-jack-plate-300-hp-max/
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The bracket looks nice. Just make sure they'll let you return it if the steering cylinder doesn't marry with it well. That's what happened to me.
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That’s a nice piece of machinery!
How wide is it? I cannot tell by Bob’s specs in the link. I was looking at the same one.
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That’s a nice piece of machinery!
How wide is it? I cannot tell by Bob’s specs in the link. I was looking at the same one.
The piece that's up against the transom is a hair under 16 3/4", the widest point further aft is 18 1/4". Something that I wasn't aware of that I hope works ok but might not with where I drilled my holes - the engine mounting holes are higher on the jack plate than the transom holes, so if you have holes drilled to put your outboard on your transom, and bolt this jack plate straight in, the centerline through the prop is going to be about an inch and a half to 2 inches higher using the lowest point on the jack plate than it was without the jack plate. I think I went low enough with my bolts to compensate, but I would have liked some play both down and up, and I think right now I am 25" from the top edge of the plate to the bottom, so pretty much only have up to go. It's a nice plate though, super solid, nice to have the option to put a lift in it later if I want.
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Thank you. I was having a minor panic attach looking at the dims on the website. As far as the mounting holes go. It is my understanding that the jack plate lives in the same holes on the transom that the OB lives in. So it must be okay as you describe it.
I think Brian has remarked that the further off the transom the water rises above the boat bottom. Maybe not 1 1/2” in 4”. Anyway I’m hoping you will want to come up with engine instead of down. I will wait to drill my holes!
How much range up and down do you have?
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I think it has better than 6" of range (up only), I am not sure I would want to operate at the top of that though. It's probably fine but seems like the amount of plate still in the channels would be getting kind of skinny at the upper end of that, and having 300hp of force pushing on the top of the plate acting like a lever just seems like it could break something with years of abuse. Once I get my trailer in hand I will probably put the motor on pretty soon after that, I can put some more specific pics of how the prop lines up using the bracket and in what relationship to the holes. I think Dan B. bought and returned a jack plate due to the same reason if memory serves...
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Thanks for the feed back
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Been working on my door, it's pretty much roughed out and ready to finish. VG fir is great stuff, that's the first time I have played with it. Pretty happy with how my door turned out. It seems pretty solid.
I also got to play with soft sand today, medium grade, and I am pretty pleased with how it turned out (without it being dry yet). The texture seems about perfect, I was kind of worried that the medium wouldn't have enough grit. But it certainly looks like it's going to to the job pretty well, so I might have to invest in a big ole bucket of it because there are going to be a lot of things I am going to want to put that on.
Still painting too, one more time sanding the sb side and then final coat and the exterior should be pretty well and done, minus the boot stripe. I went salmon fishing on a wood boat out of half moon bay last week (the hulicat) and sort of paid attention to the fit and finish on that boat, and came to the conclusion that I am kind of obsessing a bit too much over the fit and finish of mine. Wood boats are supposed to have character right? :) Anyways, I think it will look good but it certainly made me feel better about the blemishes and flaws that I didn't fix... White paint so far has also been much harder to use, I tend to want to get full coverage so I put it on heavy, then have to sand out a bunch of runs and sags. It's also extremely hard to see how the coat is going on (missed spots or heavy spots) because it all just looks white when it is bright out...
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sure is looking good! I am even fairing the cockpit. Talk about obsessing?! But I want it to be as near perfect as I can get it. I dont have motors or a trailer yet so no rush here.
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sure is looking good! I am even fairing the cockpit. Talk about obsessing?! But I want it to be as near perfect as I can get it. I dont have motors or a trailer yet so no rush here.
The obsession is real!
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Yep, I have been told to STOP obsessing so much over the finish. The way I see it is you can spend a little more time and it will be beautiful forever or leave it and the blemish will be there forever. That said I will have a few blemishes forever :)
Your boat is looking fantastic!!!!
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Hey ... If you really want a yacht finish, save yourself some work and ONLY make it pretty on the outside of the hull from the waterline to the gunnels, and on the outside faces of the pilothouse and cuddy side panels ... nobody sees or notices anything else!
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LOL ;D
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Do you think you will make the trip to port Townsend? I sure would like to see your boat?
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Do you think you will make the trip to port Townsend? I sure would like to see your boat?
I second that request!!!!!
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Do you think you will make the trip to port Townsend? I sure would like to see your boat?
As of now I am accepted for a spot on the water... The stars kind of need to align though, there are a number of things I need to figure out to make it so. I have most of the family commitment things worked out but need to kind of get my butt in gear and finish among other logistical things like registration and wide load permits, but abandoning perfection is probably a great first step. :) Really hoping to see you all there.
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Do you think you will make the trip to port Townsend? I sure would like to see your boat?
As of now I am accepted for a spot on the water... The stars kind of need to align though, there are a number of things I need to figure out to make it so. I have most of the family commitment things worked out but need to kind of get my butt in gear and finish among other logistical things like registration and wide load permits, but abandoning perfection is probably a great first step. :) Really hoping to see you all there.
It's gonna be fun!
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Big step for me tonight, I finally buttoned down my cockpit sole. What a show that was... I started putting fillet mix out with a plastic bag and then realized very quickly that I was going to run out of wood flour. Luckily I had a big box of fumed silica, which I used a lot of and accented with what wood flour I had left. The resulting mix didn't stand up tall quite as great (didn't fill gaps as well) and I didn't get it quite thick enough, but had a good amount of squeeze out in a lot of areas when I put the deck down so I think I got it good enough.
I have also been potting my deck hardware a bit using rbob's article that he shared for a guide. It's been tedious but I think it will be worth it. The result is pretty bulletproof.
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Wow ... I hate running out of something in the second that I need it! Glad your quick thinking got you through! The deck looks great, BTW ... you'll really enjoy walking on a flat surface now!
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Wow ... I hate running out of something in the second that I need it! Glad your quick thinking got you through! The deck looks great, BTW ... you'll really enjoy walking on a flat surface now!
It was definitely a bit of a moment of panic, 'um, sooooo, should I scrape this big ole cup of fillet mix up then and throw it in the trash and break out the scraper tomorrow?'. The high cabosil mix actually seemed like it had enough body, I was mainly worried that if I walked on it at all before it was dried it would squeeze it all out and leave pockets. Worked out though, I just looked and everything seems solid. Hope I didn't forget anything! If I did it's going above decks now...
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I picked up my trailer today, and got my windows a couple days ago from Wynne. Both did a fantastic job, top notch workmanship, I am very happy all around. Lots of work to do just getting all of this stuff installed, but once the boat is on the trailer I can start working on installing my motor, so fun times ahead. The trailer weighs 950 lbs, which is less than I thought it would (and it's 7500 lbs gross, not 7000 like I previously thought).
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Awesome!
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GOOD LOOKING TRAILER!!!!
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New home for my floaty toy. For those who are about to do this, get the tongue as high as you can while you are loading it. I have a big dip that made the rear of the trailer stick up, which really scratched the crap out of the bottom. I will get in there and fix it but... Not real great anyways. It also caused the hdpe on the bunks to break free and start to slide, so I probably scratched the bottom more as a result. Regardless, the end result is the same. No one lost an arm and the boat is ready for the next steps so all in all it was a good day.
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=y8Yxbn2_7hU
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I saw a GA builder cranking his hull onto his trailer once ... the jig rolled forward with the boat and smashed/broke a row of 3 lights on the center of the end of the trailer ... live and learn they say :)
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I saw a GA builder cranking his hull onto his trailer once ... the jig rolled forward with the boat and smashed/broke a row of 3 lights on the center of the end of the trailer ... live and learn they say :)
Ya, I haven't checked quite yet but my jig rolled up against the strip on my trailer too, might have cracked it. I was sort of committed at that point... w/e, moving on!
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Glad it went on with only minor damage. I will be trying the same soon, my brother in-law use to unhook the trailer from the truck and winch boats on at the marina he worked at, I need to ask him again its been 30 years since I seen it done.
It was suggested to me to put dish soap on the trailer bunks to make it slide, I have never put one on a trailer before. A side note my brother in-law was winching boats that were resting on car tires not a jig...
Thanks for the video!
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Glad it went on with only minor damage. I will be trying the same soon, my brother in-law use to unhook the trailer from the truck and winch boats on at the marina he worked at, I need to ask him again its been 30 years since I seen it done.
It was suggested to me to put dish soap on the trailer bunks to make it slide, I have never put one on a trailer before. A side note my brother in-law was winching boats that were resting on car tires not a jig...
Thanks for the video!
I bet that dish soap would have really helped. I wish I had thought of that. I think a large part of my problem was the binding from the plastic and the angle of attack. I needed my tongue higher, back lower, less friction, and the aft bunks a bit closer to center towards the front. I am going to try to jack the boat to make adjustments to the bunks, but not sure how that will go. I might just need to get this thing done and put it in the water to really make the adjustments correctly. We will see.
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Outstanding, did you spray on the paint or roll it, looks great?
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With the tongue jack all the way up, you can lower the back end of the trailer even lower by letting air out down to 15psi or so... the trailer will squish down and be more forgiving as the boat makes the leap from jig to trailer ...
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Outstanding, did you spray on the paint or roll it, looks great?
I rolled it. Still need to do a final sand and 1 more coat, but this paint is unreal. Seriously great stuff.
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That’s beautiful! Great video getting it on the trailer as well, I’m a ways out from that but it was very instructive. I will be duplicating your bullwork and with the euro transom, our boats will look pretty similar (I hope). That paint does look very good. Congrats - got to feel good.
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That’s beautiful! Great video getting it on the trailer as well, I’m a ways out from that but it was very instructive. I will be duplicating your bullwork and with the euro transom, our boats will look pretty similar (I hope). That paint does look very good. Congrats - got to feel good.
Thanks Randy, definitely feels good. :) Looking forward to seeing your build progress, you are cruising thus far... Keep it up!
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After a summer of fun that didn't include a lot of boat building I am back at it. Today I wrapped up installing my windows, and a number of other tiny shiny things. I also found a rental yard that rents engine hoists by the day, so one of these days soon I might grab one for the day and hang my Yamaha.
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The whole thing looks shiny!
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Stupendous!!
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Beautiful!!! Super good job Jason!
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After seeing your boat I’ve been wishing I did the bulwarks to mine. I really like the look.
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Thanks Todd, I totally agree. They did add a lot of time to my build, but helped me work out some flaws in my sheer line, so big plus there. My biggest worry with them tho is they seem pretty vulnerable to getting dinged on the top. I am kind of mulling over solutions for that, right now they have the end grain treatment (silica epoxy rubbed into them). Pretty sure if I drop an anchor on them tho they are gonna get compromised. I might try topping them with some ipe or maybe plastic.
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Hi Jason.
I am very grateful and really happy to hear your comment on Alexseal and to see the great photos of the finished boat.
Great job.
I'm building a 25 foot Great Alaskan in Spain, Ibiza. Almost finished.
I'll get my Alexseal paint delivered next week. Will also roll and not spray, no space in the workshop ...
Cabin Top cloude withe, Hull Light gray.
Thanks again for your great job.
Roger Bonnot
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Hey Roger, thanks! Good choice in colors! ;) Post pics of your paint job and your boat, I am positive I am not the only one around here who would love to see it...
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I installed my EZ anchor puller ez5 today, it looks rock solid. I got 700 ft of 1/4" dyneema, another 75' of 8 plait 1/2" nylon and another 50' of 1/4" G4 galvanized chain and went ahead and put that on. To do it I flaked the rode into a couple buckets, put water into them, and then put a half full bucket of water on top to keep tension and keep the dyneema under water. It worked really well. Only 1 problem, I wound it on the wrong direction... doh! Oh well, I will be really good at it the next time I do it lol.
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Jason,
What do you mean by wrapping the wrong direction? Were you supposed to have the line pull off the bottom of the spool?
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Jason,
What do you mean by wrapping the wrong direction? Were you supposed to have the line pull off the bottom of the spool?
Yes, the ez4, 5, and 6 (and maybe the others, not sure) are directional. They have a free-fall clutch that disengages when you hold the down button for 2 seconds, which allows the drum to free spin and drop the anchor as fast as it can go. According to the orientation shown in their drawings I spooled mine backwards. I am not entirely sure I want to pull my anchor rode under the spool, it would probably put a lot of strain on the roller and just not be a great angle of attack on pulling the load. But, now that I think about it, pulling the anchor rode over a bow roller is basically the same sort of thing, so maybe it doesn't matter as much as I think. In any case, I have my rode off of the pile of boxes sitting next to my desk, so for now it's at least out of my way. I might reach out to their rep and ask about it and see what they say. I think the motor is orientable, so if I was so inclined to incur the pain I could pull it off and reinstall it the other way, but I definitely don't want the motor sticking out into the foot room behind the winch where people will be walking, and even if I install it the other way I think I still need to spool it on in the other direction.
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I looks right, feeding the top of the roller, maybe the motor can be mounted on either side.
Those are awesome though!
I am pretty sure the pic of @Dan Boccia anchor puller the chain is coming off the top of the roller, maybe he will chime in.
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Thank you for the reply. I plan on using the same winch and had no idea that that it could not be wound either direction.
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Dan has his motor on the right looking forward, mine is on the left. I assume he spun his motor to make it pull from the top which is what I probably should do (dangit)…
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That will be EZ Enough! At least you figured it out.
Just one more time.
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I hung my motor today, nice to get that off the floor of my shop. I went and rented an engine hoist which made it a breeze. My bolts weren't long enough, but luckily my contact at the local yamaha dealer was able to hook me up with some new bolts that worked. I measured my tongue weight of my trailer last week, it came in quite heavy at 1200ish pounds (I sort of figured as much), which is more than I want to put on my half ton truck. I am hoping when I re-measure it now that it's a bit lighter, and that I can make it work instead of having to move the axles forward on this trailer or get a new truck. I am probably due a new truck anyways but I was hoping to make it to next year before I went there. I need to get this trailer down to AAA to register it, so hopefully I can figure out a way to do it with my tundra. Maybe I will throw some sand bags on the stern and get a little more off the front.
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I just measured again after hanging the motor, got about 800 lbs, which is a bit on the heavy side but I am definitely better with that than the 1200.
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Using the engine hoist is a great idea, on the tongue weight, I have a half ton Nissan and just recently installed airbags in the rear, what a difference it made. I pull an 26' camp trailer and it usually squats which I do not like.
Truck rides great even without the trailer, I put 40lbs air but you can go up to 100 which I would not do.
Here's the info: https://www.amazon.com/gp/product/B000CFS01E/ref=ppx_yo_dt_b_asin_title_o07_s00?ie=UTF8&psc=1 (https://www.amazon.com/gp/product/B000CFS01E/ref=ppx_yo_dt_b_asin_title_o07_s00?ie=UTF8&psc=1)
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Airbags is an interesting idea. I pull a 28’ travel trailer that puts my truck to the limit (8500/850+ tw) but it doesn’t really squat when I am using the weight distribution hitch. I don’t really have that option with the boat so I am sure it will squat like crazy. Thanks for the tip!
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Using the engine hoist is a great idea, on the tongue weight, I have a half ton Nissan and just recently installed airbags in the rear, what a difference it made. I pull an 26' camp trailer and it usually squats which I do not like.
Truck rides great even without the trailer, I put 40lbs air but you can go up to 100 which I would not do.
Here's the info: https://www.amazon.com/gp/product/B000CFS01E/ref=ppx_yo_dt_b_asin_title_o07_s00?ie=UTF8&psc=1 (https://www.amazon.com/gp/product/B000CFS01E/ref=ppx_yo_dt_b_asin_title_o07_s00?ie=UTF8&psc=1)
Air bags are great for those occasional heavy tows that you have to do ... but WARNING: MAKE SURE that when your shop installs them, that they BEVEL/CHAMFER the top AND bottom of the holes they put in your truck's frame before they install the airbags. If they don't, then frame cracks can occur, originating from the sharp edges on those non-factory holes in the frame. Just sayin' ... as with all things, get educated and do it right the first time. The cracking issue occurred to a friend of mine (1996 Chevy 1/2 ton)
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I did the Roadmaster Active Suspension add-on to my Ford F-150 1/2 tone and really like it. My travel trailer would really make it squat and sway. They’re a little bit more money but don’t require pumping up. And when there is no load I really don’t know the difference. It’s been a great solution for my truck. https://www.etrailer.com/dept-pg-Vehicle_Suspension-pm-RAS.aspx (https://www.etrailer.com/dept-pg-Vehicle_Suspension-pm-RAS.aspx)
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I did the Roadmaster Active Suspension add-on to my Ford F-150 1/2 tone and really like it. My travel trailer would really make it squat and sway. They’re a little bit more money but don’t require pumping up. And when there is no load I really don’t know the difference. It’s been a great solution for my truck. https://www.etrailer.com/dept-pg-Vehicle_Suspension-pm-RAS.aspx (https://www.etrailer.com/dept-pg-Vehicle_Suspension-pm-RAS.aspx)
I like how they don't require any holes to be drilled. Do they actually prevent squating when towing a load that's a bit much for your truck's rating?
(https://cdn.shopify.com/s/files/1/0557/7585/4800/files/home-kit-photo.png?v=1626876606)
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I would bet that if things went wrong and you crashed the insurance company would not pay and money can not replace what we have invested in our boats.
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Insurance? As long as you do not exceed the recommended towing capacity of your vehicle I see no issue.
It is safer towing with a non sagging vehicle for sure. The only compromise I see is the brakes on a half ton truck are not ideal for panic stops with heavy loads behind so keep plenty of room in front of you. I can tow with a F-350 Crew Cab Diesel with disc brakes all around and the stopping power is amazing, when I tow with my Nissan I am very careful..
Couple of great articles below.
https://autoreviewhub.com/trucks-towing-capacity-ranked/ (https://autoreviewhub.com/trucks-towing-capacity-ranked/)
https://www.kbb.com/car-advice/towing-capacity-guide/ (https://www.kbb.com/car-advice/towing-capacity-guide/)
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Just for information. I just put 5000 lb Firestone air bags on my 2002 GMC 2500hd. You don’t have to drill anything but one small 3/16 hole in the middle of the frame. They work great. I pull a 11,000 lb trailer and no squat.
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Just for information. I just put 5000 lb Firestone air bags on my 2002 GMC 2500hd. You don’t have to drill anything but one small 3/16 hole in the middle of the frame. They work great. I pull a 11,000 lb trailer and no squat.
Nice!
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I have my truck such as it is optimized for towing. I think. It’s old and maybe with all the added goodies not even comparable to a newer stock truck. I too have the Firestone airbags, with the in cab gauge and inflation. It’s the only way to go. I also have front and rear sway bars. I added a back up camera too. It has made it much nicer for towing.
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Insurance? As long as you do not exceed the recommended towing capacity of your vehicle I see no issue.
It is safer towing with a non sagging vehicle for sure. The only compromise I see is the brakes on a half ton truck are not ideal for panic stops with heavy loads behind so keep plenty of room in front of you. I can tow with a F-350 Crew Cab Diesel with disc brakes all around and the stopping power is amazing, when I tow with my Nissan I am very careful..
Couple of great articles below.
https://autoreviewhub.com/trucks-towing-capacity-ranked/ (https://autoreviewhub.com/trucks-towing-capacity-ranked/)
https://www.kbb.com/car-advice/towing-capacity-guide/ (https://www.kbb.com/car-advice/towing-capacity-guide/)
I agree. My stock F-350 same as robs tows everything, its amazing! Just towed my rig over the pass to get a motor. It had 1470 lbs of tong weight. Never swayed once but it has good electric breaks on the trailer and I was very careful. I'll be moving the axles forward
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I did the Roadmaster Active Suspension add-on to my Ford F-150 1/2 tone and really like it. My travel trailer would really make it squat and sway. They’re a little bit more money but don’t require pumping up. And when there is no load I really don’t know the difference. It’s been a great solution for my truck. https://www.etrailer.com/dept-pg-Vehicle_Suspension-pm-RAS.aspx (https://www.etrailer.com/dept-pg-Vehicle_Suspension-pm-RAS.aspx)
I like how they don't require any holes to be drilled. Do they actually prevent squating when towing a load that's a bit much for your truck's rating?
(https://cdn.shopify.com/s/files/1/0557/7585/4800/files/home-kit-photo.png?v=1626876606)
I bought a beat up 24’ travel trailer to refurbish three years ago - lots of tongue weight. That first trip home on winding gravel roads and the Columbia Gorge highway was frightening. The truck squatted quite a bit and the trailer was squirrelly in wind, I think that was my first experience with leaf spring roll as well. These things completely solved the problem and I don’t notice any change in ride when not towing anything. I’ve had them three years now and no problems. You can screw them down for a heavier load if needed but I find the base setting is adequate. I’ve literally never touched them since I put them on except to occasionally make sure they’re still there. I’m pretty happy with them.
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The RAS thing looks easy to install too. I still believe that a 3/4 ton truck w/enhancement (RAS or bags) is a great compromise... rides better than a 1-ton, you generally get a tranny that's more "car like" in how it shifts and uses over-drive etc, but in a heart beat, you can tow something heavier. Oh ... the 3/4t costs $10k less too ....
You've viewed the truck from the side and that gizmo prevents squat? Or is it more of a roll-control device?
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The RAS thing looks easy to install too. I still believe that a 3/4 ton truck w/enhancement (RAS or bags) is a great compromise... rides better than a 1-ton, you generally get a tranny that's more "car like" in how it shifts and uses over-drive etc, but in a heart beat, you can tow something heavier. Oh ... the 3/4t costs $10k less too ....
You've viewed the truck from the side and that gizmo prevents squat? Or is it more of a roll-control device?
Definitely prevents squat.
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For those who may be curious I talked to a rep from ez anchor puller on Friday, they said that pulling under the spool was no problem as long as as I was using the roller that was provided in the kit, which I am. I guess real world will probably dictate whether further action on my part is necessary but they seemed pretty confident that that was within the intended use for their system.
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The RAS thing looks easy to install too. I still believe that a 3/4 ton truck w/enhancement (RAS or bags) is a great compromise... rides better than a 1-ton, you generally get a tranny that's more "car like" in how it shifts and uses over-drive etc, but in a heart beat, you can tow something heavier. Oh ... the 3/4t costs $10k less too ....
You've viewed the truck from the side and that gizmo prevents squat? Or is it more of a roll-control device?
Definitely prevents squat.
Well ... as soon as I get a new(er) F-250, I might just put those in! Hate drilling holes through factory metal ... but would for airbags, especially if the hole is small as mentioned above.
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I have been finally pushing forward my ipe rub rails. I got the port one almost installed, just need to figure out how to get the bend around the bow. The stuff is really hard to bend. I also had big anxiety about turning my hard fought sheer line into swiss cheese, I just had to keep telling myself it's for the greater good. I was able to bury 50 threaded posts on the port side and epoxy oversized holes, and they seem solid. I still need to cap this side with a thin veneer of ipe and fair it, but I am happy with the result so far. I am hoping to have these done by next week.
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Those look amazing, and will be near bullet proof. I remember using a file to round the corners over. I capped my meranti rails with ipe and was forced to put several thin strips to make the bend up front.
Something abound drilling holes in a boat makes me pause also.
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I made all of the spray rails and keel guard out of IPE on my boat. I had to slice it down to 3/8 thick to get the bends I needed. I would like to have the same style rub rails you are making now. If you find some great trick other than lapping thin slices together, like I did on my spray rails, I sure would like to know.
P.S. I have had no issue cutting IPE with carbide tools.
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I made all of the spray rails and keel guard out of IPE on my boat. I had to slice it down to 3/8 thick to get the bends I needed. I would like to have the same style rub rails you are making now. If you find some great trick other than lapping thin slices together, like I did on my spray rails, I sure would like to know.
P.S. I have had no issue cutting IPE with carbide tools.
So far I have no trick, I am just brute forcing it into place. I think I am going to try to use some clamps to coerce the front into place, and then I am hoping they won't pop out using threaded studs every 6". The pieces I am using are standard s4s decking in depth, so probably around 5/8" to 3/4" thick? I might have a quarter inch I could plane off to still keep the holes above the studs, but I think it would be close so hoping I can make this work. I wish I would have done my strakes and centerline in ipe, that's a great idea for durability and beaching... I already knicked the center one down to the wood when I was putting the boat on the trailer and had to patch it, if it was ipe I would have not really cared much about that if I even glassed it to begin with.
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You could put some thin cuts across from top to bottom on the inside of the wood. That way you would be loading the outside in tension but the compression on the inner half of the wood would be reduced. It will reduce the overall strength of the wood but at least it should reduce the tension on your bolts.
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I thought about that and might give it a try if this seems too crazy tight. When I test fit it I was using deck screws to hold it while my brother muscled it into place, and only the last one pulled so I think it might be ok if I can get it into shape, but some inner cuts would probably go a long way towards reducing how much spring back force there is.
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You could put some thin cuts across from top to bottom on the inside of the wood. That way you would be loading the outside in tension but the compression on the inner half of the wood would be reduced. It will reduce the overall strength of the wood but at least it should reduce the tension on your bolts.
Probably your best bet!
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Json, I was admiring the paint job at the waterline. Photos on P21 IIRC. I have some questions for you please.
First have you floated her yet to see where the waterline ends up on the hull?
Did you you use Brian's prescription in the manual to lay out the waterline?
How high up the hull from the chine flat at the transom did you level your waterline?
I plan on painting the hull much like you did. I am worried a bit about the area of the paint that borders the bottom treatment. Alexseal paint is not rated for immersion. I dont want a failure in the paint if I have the boat in the water for weeks at a time.
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Json, I was admiring the paint job at the waterline. Photos on P21 IIRC. I have some questions for you please.
First have you floated her yet to see where the waterline ends up on the hull?
Did you you use Brian's prescription in the manual to lay out the waterline?
How high up the hull from the chine flat at the transom did you level your waterline?
I plan on painting the hull much like you did. I am worried a bit about the area of the paint that borders the bottom treatment. Alexseal paint is not rated for immersion. I dont want a failure in the paint if I have the boat in the water for weeks at a time.
Todd - I haven't floated her yet. I approximated by measuring an offset of which I forget where I got it and added a little for good measure. I don't intend on leaving the boat in the water very often so if it's below the waterline because I am running heavy then... idk, I guess I hope that it doesn't cause problems. I just measured the offset and I went with 6" at the transom, of which I believe the recommendation was 4, with a couple added on for insurance. Keep in mind kodiak chines are going to cause the boat to float higher for same displacement, so make sure you use the correct one if Brian has them referenced in the manual... I also used graphite in epoxy for the bottom, so I didn't have to worry about painting over ablative bottom paint like it sounds like you are going to have to do. Maybe call or email alexseal and ask how to do that if you are going with their paint.
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Thx for the response. Brian recommend 6” in the manual for a standard GA. I came up 9” at the transom level across the hull. I’m going to paint above it I think and just go for it. I would like to think I will be good to go. I won’t k ow for quite some time.
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There's no reason for precision on the waterline ... if you like it above the minimums, then that's fine. It slims down the 'impression' of the side panel height. Another thing that I like to do with waterlines, is to give them a bit of a 'smile' shape, a little up at the stern versus completely level. It's an old boat builder's trick that improves how the boat appears to be trimming when in the water ... like, stern-low doesn't look stern-low.
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It will be interesting to see it in the water. I added 4 1/4” to side panel height. I installed “smiley” spray rails. I’m hoping that is enough to distract the eye. I’m losing steam In the boat barn. Ready to go fishing!
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Don't miss a season of fishing for the boat build ... take an inspirational break and go fishing!
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I like your style. Just a couple minor things in the way like paint and power. Itll happen one way or another
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I totally relate to the fade on boat efforts.. I have largely switched gears lately because for some reason I can't really get myself to mix glue or work after my kids go to bed, so I have been working on the house 12v here and there. I have most of my house system components in hand, which consists of 2 kilovault 2400 hlx+ 200 amp hour lifepo4 batteries, a 60 amp battery to battery charger for taking charge from the alternator, a 2k watt inverter charger for shore power and AC appliances run from the house bank off grid. I am working my way backwards to installing those guys since it would probably be better to be more experienced at that point than less experienced when I am doing things that could turn my project into a smoldering pile of ash. Couple things that have really helped my efforts or I have found work well...
- using a bench dc power bank for testing the boat circuits - I can hook my bench power up to a fuse block and can just focus on getting the load run right without worrying about the bigger picture for now which is nice.
- using dymo (or other portable label printer) heat shrink printer and heat shrink labels - not sure where I saw this, maybe in Dan B's build, but man, these go a long way to making things clear and clean.
- using velcro wraps for cord bundles - Instead of cutting and replacing plastic zip ties these can be opened and closed a bunch, so work great to keep stuff organized in partial incomplete bundles, which I think is basically going to be the state of this system basically forever since there will always be something to add.
I also gave my captain a test ride once I got the helm mostly put together, he says he approves.
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Where are you putting 2 200AH batteries? Did I read that right? That’s serious juice.
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Where are you putting 2 200AH batteries? Did I read that right? That’s serious juice.
You did. I haven't decided on a location yet, the overall size is like 20"x12"x7" or so, and they weigh about a hundred pounds for both of them together, so my options are pretty open. My initial thought is to put them under the dinette, which I like, but I am starting to think maybe moving them backwards to take tongue weight off my hitch is a better move. So I am contemplating getting started building my second station in the cockpit and putting them there. I was also going to go with a single 200 amp hour battery, but started adding up my loads and thought I better get another for a bit more cushion. My bait tank pump is 8 amps, so if it's running for 24 hours that's 196 amp hours right there (assuming no alternator or other charging), plus other loads including the inverter, etc. I think 400 amp hours aught to get me there and if not I can look at creative ways of bridging the gap. The other thing that steered me towards 2 batteries is the max current that they can deliver. I don't think even with a couple in parallel I can use them as an emergency starter battery without a boost like a capacitor, but incorporating things like my anchor winch (120a) I am getting pretty close to the limit that they can output, so doubling that as well as the charging rate seemed like a good idea. We will see how it plays in real life.
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Json,
You are making great progress even with boat fade. Thanks for the electrical tips, I hated the plastic cable ties on my prior boat.
You will have enough amp hrs to run Christmas lights galore!
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How many amps can your alternator put out? I ask, because that 60A battery-to-battery charger is probably too big for any alternator on a 200-300hp outboard engine. These alternators are pretty low-tech and designed to charge lead acid batteries, which only accept high charge current for a short period of time before tapering off to lower current. In contrast, your large-ish lithium battery bank can accept VERY high charge current for long periods of time, and thus your alternator will be working much longer than designed, most likely. Many battery to battery chargers have a setting in which it will only put out half of its rated current - if yours has that setting, I would strongly consider it.
I also suggest, with the chance of the lithium batteries going into a fault mode and shutting down, that you have a convenient way to run your electronics from your start AGM battery, just in case. Lithium batteries are pretty touchy, even good ones like you purchased.
I like what wiring I see so far - drip loops, clean routing, looks like you're taking your time. Enjoy!
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Thanks for the advice Dan. I will take a look at the b2b charger (it's from renogy), and perhaps talk to my Yamaha rep about the alternator. I think the yamaha f300 I bought has up to 70 amps from the alternator, but your point is well taken. I will have a look at the manual and see if I can scale back the charge rate. Also great point about config with the agm for the house in emergencies. I was thinking about the other way around but hadn't thought about the house bank going into an unrecoverable fault or even shut down/restart at an inconvenient time. Good call!
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When are going to float this thing? You have got to be close. Very impressed with your work.
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I have been slacking lately. Holiday season was busy busy. I am hoping to get it on the water by May, still waiting on my steering module from yamaha which is the last piece blocking me. I imagine if I don't get my butt in gear before that arrives, once I have it in hand it will probably be a big motivator. In any case, a boring new year should afford more opportunity to make progress on the boat :)
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Nothing really exciting to report on this project, constant progress on a number of fronts. I feel like I have about 15 projects going at once and have been trying to do the one that I hate the most lately, which feels good in a weird way albeit pretty scattered. Most recently I have been trying to get the cockpit paintable, which means I have to make it waterproof, which means I have to actually finish the work in there... which means I got started on that.. pics to prove that I actually have a boat or something...
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Details details ... that's where the time goes. But with each small thing done, it's irreversible progress ... do that on a regular basis and next thing you know, you've forgotten all of that and are cruising in style out on the big blue!
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The devil is definitely in the details. I got a mount for my house batteries made and installed under the fore bench for the dinette, and got them to the same voltage and made into one via parallel connection. Kilovault recommends commissioning them by fully charging them prior to install, but I don't have a proper charger, so I used my bench power on their recommended charging voltage to match the voltage at 10 amps on both of the batteries before I connected them. Once they were matched voltage-wise connecting them in parallel was uneventful. For now I am going to leave them like that since they are going to be sitting for a bit (they are at 35% SOC). I have been steadily working towards having the whole power system integrated and installed, but it takes a lot of 'take this step' and then order the piece for the next step, scratch head, repeat. Now I am moving on to the power bus bar under the console and integrating the inverter/charger and dc-dc battery charger. I think I have a pretty good idea of how it's all going to go together with the exception of how to wire the shore power, which I may bug my electrician neighbor to help me.
Also been making progress on the shelving and whatnot in the cockpit, I think what I intend to do will turn out useful.
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Looking great! I was just wondering how you've been doing down there ... nice pix!
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Yep! Just quietly cranking away as much as I can find time for. I feel like I am making some good headway in a few areas that are going to be more share worthy here pretty quick, it’s funny how you get to a point in this build where it’s all coming together but it doesn’t really seem like you can capture anything with a picture or a post. Seems like maybe that will change here pretty soon once I get some of these systems more towards finished.
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json,
Those batteries are big and awesome looking! Good to see what you have been up to.
Keep chugging!
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You will love the smart plug, burned through the regular marine plugs every year on my sail boat, but the smart plug has lasted for the past 6 years or so. I have a cord that has a regular 30 amp male and smart plug female for the marina.
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It would be awesome if someone compiled a complete how to for wiring
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Even better a phone app with general layout if a boat that you could modify. There are lots of info if you plan to use solar on DIY Solar Power and here on this site, Dan Boccia has lots of info and pics as you probably know.
https://diysolarforum.com/forums/marine.10/ (https://diysolarforum.com/forums/marine.10/)
I spend - spent a lot of time looking at photos and diagrams of what others have done which is very helpful just time consuming.
There are only so many places on a boat to put wiring and the options are endless which causes brain freeze for me. hahaaaha...
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Even better a phone app with general layout if a boat that you could modify. There are lots of info if you plan to use solar on DIY Solar Power and here on this site, Dan Boccia has lots of info and pics as you probably know.
https://diysolarforum.com/forums/marine.10/ (https://diysolarforum.com/forums/marine.10/)
I spend - spent a lot of time looking at photos and diagrams of what others have done which is very helpful just time consuming.
There are only so many places on a boat to put wiring and the options are endless which causes brain freeze for me. hahaaaha...
For some reason, the circuit pix in Dan Boccia's thread (FAQ board) are all broken ... I need to research and fix that ... :(
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I have been working on a dinette table, I laminated some african mahogany to some ply, and decided to inlay the name of the boat into the table in the galley. I am getting a piece of clear plastic to cover the table and am planning to put charts under the plastic for easy access and planning. I thought it was a cool idea and thought I would share. It's not quite done but I think it's going to work out pretty great. I am going to create a lip out of figured walnut to stop spills, drain to center as suggested in the manual.
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Wow! That dinette is sweet! Do you now sand off the blue stuff and leave behind a beautiful table with 'engraved blue lettering'? Your boat is really something!
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Yep, that's the plan! The blue mica powder that I added to the epoxy for the fill was pretty heavy and was sinking out, but it actually looks like it all sank into the engraving, so it seems like it worked out. We will see once I take off the surface.
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Yep, that's the plan! The blue mica powder that I added to the epoxy for the fill was pretty heavy and was sinking out, but it actually looks like it all sank into the engraving, so it seems like it worked out. We will see once I take off the surface.
Cool, I've seen that done before and it's sweet ... :)
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You are and have a talent for woodworking and its amazing to see what you are doing. I suck at the artistic side of things.
I am going to check that electrical plug, at first I was sure I would have no need for plugging my boat in. Things change...
On edit,
Wiring the shore power plug? I need to check into that.
Ok, found a pretty in depth article. Posting it for reference only..
https://productimageserver.com/literature/quickGuide/42693QG.pdf#:~:text=Hooking%20up%20to%20shore%20Power%20Remember%20these%20steps,shore%20power%20cable%20at%20the%20dockside%20FIRST.%205.
(https://productimageserver.com/literature/quickGuide/42693QG.pdf#:~:text=Hooking%20up%20to%20shore%20Power%20Remember%20these%20steps,shore%20power%20cable%20at%20the%20dockside%20FIRST.%205.)
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Thanks Rbob! I am not really intending to plug to shore power in a marina so much, but will be glad to have it on those occasions. I am more looking for an easy plug at home to just keep things charged. I have a charger/inverter that's going to be wired up, I have the smart plug installed but not wired yet, all the ac stuff is a bit daunting and I haven't really given it it's time in the sun yet. End goal will be to just throw a cord on it and be ready and charged when I am ready to take the boat out. Bonus that it will hopefully work in a slip or marina.
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You are and have a talent for woodworking and its amazing to see what you are doing. I suck at the artistic side of things.
... I'm more of a CDX plywood kinda guy :D :D :D
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I certainly used my fair share of CDX in my build lol. Here is the finished inlay, glassed over with 10oz and a hot coat, waiting on varnish and walnut trim. I think it turned out pretty good...
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I think it looks amazing!!
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I think it looks amazing!!
Ditto ... the engraving and wood turned out awesome! How'd you go about doing the actual carving?
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I printed the design on paper, then taped it to the piece and traced hard with a pencil to indent the wood. Then lifted the paper and carefully traced the design on the wood. Once that looked good I used a dremel with a router base and a bit used for guitar fretboard inlay carving (super super tiny spiral cutter) and just followed the lines. I also used a lit magnifying glasses setup to see the work, my eyes aren't quite what they used to be as the years pile on. :)
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.......... my eyes aren't quite what they used to be as the years pile on. :)
Don't worry, it gets worse !!!
:o
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Don't worry, it gets worse !!!
:o
Ya, as bad as it has gotten for close vision for me in the last couple years I assume it's only on a downhill path from here...
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Easy fix, wear 2 pair of glasses at once. You can see great up close!!
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Don't worry, it gets worse !!!
:o
Ya, as bad as it has gotten for close vision for me in the last couple years I assume it's only on a downhill path from here...
It's something about glasses ... as soon as you start using them, your vision falls off a cliff. I suspect that straining your eyes less also exercises the muscles around the eyes less... dunno
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It's something about glasses ... as soon as you start using them, your vision falls off a cliff. I suspect that straining your eyes less also exercises the muscles around the eyes less... dunno
I have heard this too actually, which is a large part of the reason why I have resisted them up until now. There is only so far out I can stretch my arm to hold things to read them though...
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Jus' a tip from a guy who started down this road a ways back. You'll know you need glasses when your wife/girlfriend points out that the tip you wrote on the charge slip was about 30% (cuz you could't read that teeny tiny numbers on those slips). :'(
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Jus' a tip from a guy who started down this road a ways back. You'll know you need glasses when your wife/girlfriend points out that the tip you wrote on the charge slip was about 30% (cuz you could't read that teeny tiny numbers on those slips). :'(
She thought you were blind ... but the waitress was a little too easy on the eyes and the 30% was no accident? :D :D :D
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Easy fix, wear 2 pair of glasses at once. You can see great up close!!
I had to go to 3 pairs once.. :o
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Easy fix, wear 2 pair of glasses at once. You can see great up close!!
I had to go to 3 pairs once.. :o
Did you have to use a nose extender? :D :D :D
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Do I hear 4 pair? :D
I am staying on the bright work route and doing an african mahogany / walnut countertop. I think I am also going to do most if not all of my cabinet doors this way (6mm or thinner ply backed thin resawn mahogany). I am having a 1/4" acrylic top made for my dinette table so I can put charts under it for group nav/planning, so until they get the final size I can't finish the trim on the table top.
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I am more impressed than before! Great job!
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... an artist at work! (not me of course!)
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I had to be clever about where to put my 2k watt inverter/charger. It's huge, weighs a ton, and needs a foot of clearance around the vents to make sure it doesn't overheat when I am using 120v power. I ended up putting it inside the helm footrest. I will be able to get my toes under it and put a removable cover on it for servicing. Putting it on the helm side also let me balance out the house batteries weight-wise side to side, so I am pretty happy thus-far with the choice.
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It will be dual purpose! Foot warmer as a bonus!
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It will be dual purpose! Foot warmer as a bonus!
Oooooo... Good call! I hadn't thought about that! Warm up my toes on a cold day!
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Boot drier also, hang wet clothes over the top:)
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Well, I knew it was going to happen sooner or later, but my no-backtracking luck just ran out. A couple builders have had fit problems with jack plates, which I was wondering if I was going to have but since my digital steering actuator hasn't come in yet I was sort of biding my time to find out for sure. Today I hooked up power to the outboard to find out definitively, and sure enough with the 4" jack plate my transom is going to impede the actuator when the motor is trimmed up. Without the bracket I think the small splash-well I made to allow clearance for the steering isn't going to be big enough either. So, seems like there's going to be a hackathon in my not-so-distant future to gain the necessary clearance. I am working on getting a spec of the actuator and clearances required so I can hopefully only do this once hahaha... I guess if nothing else it will give me another thing to work on while I wait for the actuator that I am convinced will never actually arrive.
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Man, that super sucks! sorry you ran into this. How the hell do anyone else use a jackplate? I sure hope I don't run into that too. I went with atlas jack plate. My entire aft end of the boat is riding on this working out without interference. It is recommended to trim the jack plate all the way down to trailer the boat which seems like it would at that point be most likely to crash. Im probably not going to sleep tonight.
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Ya, not sure how you would pull off tilting the motor up plus putting the jack plate down combined with any kind of hydraulic or digital actuator, it certainly doesn’t seem like there would be room, at least not on this jack plate anyways. Seems for me that I could have done myself a favor by not putting the jack plate holes where I thought the outboard holes should go, and locating them a bit lower to get the housing a bit lower and more out of the way, so that may be one of the things I end up doing. As it is, unless the jack plate lets the actuator clear the transom on tilt the 25” transom combined with a 25” shaft won’t work with a 4” plate I don’t think, the top of the transom needs to be a couple inches shorter. I need specs for the actuator to confirm, but that’s what it’s looking like currently.
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This is a known issue. I once had a Bob's Machine jack plate that could not be made to work, period. I wondered why the guy that I bought it from was selling it. Bad design. But anyway, with the ability to jack the motor up and down, tilt the motor, and all the different steering systems that exist, it is unfortunately likely that some will run into some mechanical clearance issues. Sorry that it happened to you ... I know your pain (mine was 4200'd to the transom and very difficult to remove too).
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Ya, I used butyl to put the motor on, so that part I am certainly thankful for. I wasn’t sure where the issue would arise but I kind of expected to have to do at least some reworking of what I had done up to that point. The good thing is that I think there is at least a way to make it work, even if the travel of the jack plate isn’t complete on the bottom end. I bought the bobs machine shop versajac which allows me to add hydraulics to it later, but it’s currently a manual plate so that should at least help to some degree that I don’t have to guarantee clearance on the lowered end of the jack plate travel. This isn’t the end of the world but it’s definitely going to add a little bit of extra fun to the mix.
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Bob's Machine jack plates are well built but they often have issues fitting boats and steering, more than others from what I've heard, but then again ... maybe I'm biased because it happened to me.
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I'm waiting for the Yamaha electric steering actuator for the boat I'm currently rebuilding, and have it from reliable sources very close to Yamaha that the part is still nowhere to be found and Yamaha has no estimate, which basically means it's low priority for them to put back into production so it's a long ways out. Really stinks.
I was gung-ho to use a jackplate, but after some careful tuning and testing, I'm firmly convinced that the jack plate would give me very little (if any) useful advantage for the boating I do. I'm actually happier without the weight, additional cantilever length adding to the moment arm, and complexity. I think the jack plate would be fun to have to super-tune your prop height, but for all the $$ and install hassles it's not worth it for me. Good luck!
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Dan, you may have just tipped the hydraulic option over the edge for me haha... I feel like I have been hounding Yamaha about this actuator forever, and ya, no solid answers or ETAs or really anything else I can hang hope on. Just a backorder that keeps being pushed into the future since March 2021 and crickets. I still have a good pile of work to do before I get to the point of splashing this vessel but I think at this point I am going to open up the option of using a hydraulic system in lieu of the electric one that I am not convinced actually exists.
Great points about the jack plate. Probably the only reason I am still thinking about using mine is that I think I am going to have to do major surgery with or without, so since I have it anyways I think I am at least going to give it a token effort to keep it intact. I am also concerned with the boat being somewhat bow heavy, very much so to tow it currently with my 1/2 ton, so the more weight I can get moved backwards for now the better, at least until my new f350 arrives, which, is also backordered into oblivion haha...
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What have you done to make the boat bow heavy?
I saw a couple pages back the notes back and forth about electrical guidance etc. I'm on my 5th electrical/electronics vessel design/install right now, and have definitely learned a lot. Perhaps sometime this winter I'll compile a couple of the cartoons and work with Brian to get them up on the forum somewhere....but people paid for these drawings so I feel funky about making them public without more thought. I'll probably do it as a series of details or descriptions to guide people (if I do it at all, it's a lot of work).
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What have you done to make the boat bow heavy?
I am not so worried about trim as much as I am about how much tongue weight will be on my trailer. The EZ rebel 5 plus ground tackle was probably 200 lbs and right up front, the house batteries are in the front port side dinette seat, 2000w inverter charger under the helm, the boat wasn't built with weight in mind really, and the wheels of the trailer are probably at least 3/4 of the way back (probably 6' from the transom to the center of both wheels). All that spells a lot of weight on the tongue, directly translated into the payload of my already strained tundra. The trim might be a bit bow heavy due to a shorter house and cuddy and large tank centered on the aft house bulkhead that was positioned to maximize cockpit space. Also the single yamaha plus jack plate comes in around 600ish pounds total, which is somewhat on the lighter side of possible configurations for this boat. In the water though I will have an 80 gallon bait tank in the cockpit that will probably negate all of that or at least come close. At some point I will also probably add a kicker which should also help. The tongue weight won't be a concern once I get my new tow vehicle, but it's been on my mind since I put this boat on a trailer.
Any electrical pointers would be huge imo, for anyone building one of these boats. It seems like a part that could definitely be done wrong with huge consequence, so more guidance on how to do it safely would be really great in my mind. Your build was amazing in all aspects that I saw, with special emphasis on that one. It is a masterpiece. :) I for one learned a ton watching what you did there.
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With that much weight forward, you will definitely need to tune your trailer to get the tongue weight correct. Better to be a tad heavy on the tongue than a tad light ... too light is a fish-tail risk. And the weight may result in a need for a bracket that moves your motor(s) aft to balance out as well. Are your fuel tanks towards the stern?
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The fuel tank is centered more or less under the aft house bulkhead (located at about 12' forward of the aft end of the transom, hull overall length is about 29'). Last time I weighed the tongue it was pushing a thousand pounds (maybe 900 and some change ballpark), which I am probably north of now since basically everything I install that's not on the transom is forward of the trailer wheels. My payload on my truck is around 1200 lbs, so I would be pushing that to take the boat down to a scale. I have airbags to install but I also have a one ton truck on special order, so I haven't installed them yet thinking that why should I bother. My understanding is that too much tongue weight is only a problem if it overloads the tow vehicle payload or trailer payload or how the rear of the vehicle levels to the road... perhaps I am mistaken there?
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Well, I can't say how much weight on the tongue is too much, but 10% of the trailer/boat combo is typical for the right amount. Heavy on the tongue won't cause fishtailing like having too much weight behind the trailer axle, but you can go too far too. Heavy on the tongue can 'lighten up' the front wheels on the truck and cause wandering and handling issues too ... I once drove a Toyota loaded like that and it wandered so bad, the fastest I could drive was about 30-35 mph.
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Ya, that makes sense. I will have to see, my gut is that it’s going to be hard to hit 10% but 15 might be doable. It’s hard to believe that any boat on a trailer is that light on the tongue with the wheels as far back as they typically are.
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From what my research turned up the tongue weight should be 10-15% is the target range for total GVW of boat and trailer. I bought a scale designed weighing your tongue weight foe $220 I highly recommend this. I had to move my axels forward almost 24" to get mine down from 1900# to 800# on the tongue. Ya have to keep in mind if your boat is full of fuel and whatever else might be on the boat while on the trailer
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Good call on the scale Chuck, I just ordered one off of amazon for $150. I had been messing around with the bathroom scale and lever trick, but it wasn't that accurate I don't think... I feel like getting an accurate tongue weight is a good first step in what seems like it's going to be an uphill battle to get the trailer weight distribution dialed in right. That's crazy that your tongue weight was almost 2k lbs, that's a TON! (literally haha) How does your boat tow with the reduced tongue weight? Do you notice the difference?
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Chuck, I’m curious if you had to move any x-members to move your axles that far forward? I think my trailer is about the same as yours. I can only go 14” with all components until I run into moving/straddling/ relocating fenders and other stuff. Just curious how I’m depth you went.
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Good call on the scale Chuck, I just ordered one off of amazon for $150. I had been messing around with the bathroom scale and lever trick, but it wasn't that accurate I don't think... I feel like getting an accurate tongue weight is a good first step in what seems like it's going to be an uphill battle to get the trailer weight distribution dialed in right. That's crazy that your tongue weight was almost 2k lbs, that's a TON! (literally haha) How does your boat tow with the reduced tongue weight? Do you notice the difference?
Strange thing is I don't really notice a difference but I'm towing with a F-350 diesel crew cab
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Chuck, I’m curious if you had to move any x-members to move your axles that far forward? I think my trailer is about the same as yours. I can only go 14” with all components until I run into moving/straddling/ relocating fenders and other stuff. Just curious how I’m depth you went.
To be honest I'm not sure, I had Newport Marine do it. I do know they had to relocate a few brake and electrical lines. They never said they moved any cross members
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Gotcha. Thx
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My tongue weight scale came, pretty handy little tool! I took the reading and, a bit north of 1200 lbs. Not as bad as I feared but still pretty heavy (my payload capacity of my tundra is 1260 lbs total). That's of course with no fuel or other amenities, I think the entire fuel tank is forward of the axles. So I guess for now the long and short of that for me is that I can't really pull it around until I get my hands on my new tow vehicle, and I should start doing some research into what it's going to take to move the axles forward or the boat aft or both. I intend to put a yamaha 25hp high thrust kicker on the boat at some point, perhaps I start on that project sooner than later since I need to do some kind of major surgery on the transom anyways. Certainly some fun things to think about...
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How much did the boat & trailer combo weigh when you were measuring 1200# on the tongue? I'm wondering what percentage of the total weight was on the tongue...
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I haven't weighed the whole package yet. I don't currently have a way to tow it without putting my truck pretty significantly over payload, and honestly not sure I could even get it out of my driveway due to a curb I would have to go down and the hitch bottoming out. Once I get the f350 that I have ordered I can take it for a ride down to the scales though. Rough guess is the whole thing (boat/trailer) weighs 5 or 6k? The trailer by itself was just shy of 1k. The axles/wheels seem really really far aft, I could be tripping but... idk, I will probably take this down to a local trailer shop and have them have a look to see if they can dial it in any.
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Boat looks great. My trailer wheels are crazy far back too.
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She looks fantastic. That 350 will tow it like it’s not even there. I think we should start a pool on its weight. My guess is 4500 pounds maybe less without fuel.
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I would be really happy with 4500... I bet it's closer to 5k dry once I actually get it weighed (a few of heavy stuffs in it, 400 ah of lithium iron phosphate batteries, 2k watt inverter charger, that big giant drum winch up on the bow, etc)... we shall see!
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Which winch did you get?
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Which winch did you get?
I ended up going with the EZ Rebel 5. My wife and I struggled like crazy trying to get it into the bow. I thought the ladder I was standing on was going to collapse. Thing is a brick.
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Wow, you guys went with the Rebel EZ-5?! I have the EZ-4 with over 600 ft of combined 1/4" dyneema/3/8" double-braid nylon/40 ft of 5/16 chain. I'm curious how much of what kind of rode you're using?
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Me too. The rebel 4 was a monster.
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Wow, you guys went with the Rebel EZ-5?! I have the EZ-4 with over 600 ft of combined 1/4" dyneema/3/8" double-braid nylon/40 ft of 5/16 chain. I'm curious how much of what kind of rode you're using?
It's a couple hundred feet over that, I think 700' of 1/4" dyneema with 75' of 1/2" nylon 8-plait, and 50' of 1/4" galvanized links. I don't think I will ever really get skinny on rode, but I am building this boat with overnighting the squid grounds on the backside of catalina and other channel islands in mind, some of which are a couple hundred feet deep or more, as well as being a largely on the hook fishing boat so I wanted to be able to scope out 5/1 or maybe more on a windy night so I can be sure I am not dragging the anchor... It was really a toss up between the 4 and 5 and I just went bigger because at the end of the day I won't really be worried about the extra rope on the spool but I think the reverse could definitely bite me. Of course, there is that little issue of too much tongue weight haha, so... ¯\_(ツ)_/¯
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OK, that makes sense for what you're doing!
In Alaska, we anchor mostly in tight coves, and honestly it's rare to be able to let out more than 3:1 scope, thus the heavier chain which helps keep the hook engaged.
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It's been a short while since I have updated here. I haven't been working as much as I would like on the boat project due to dealing with the fallout from a bad business partnership. Some builders get honey-do kitchen reno projects to take them away from their builds, I get a partner dispute. :)
In what time I have had to work on it I have been finishing up the cockpit, which I was able to get painted this week. Next up will be to get the bait tank up in there and trim the bottom to fit the sole, then install that and texture the whole cockpit sole.
I have all but given up on my Yamaha digital steering actuator ever coming, and have pretty much pivoted to purchasing a hydraulic steering setup in the short term and using the Yamaha Helm Master EX on level 1 for now, which is just the digital engine control only. That should at least get me on the water. My new (and much more capable and able to handle the tongue weight of the boat trailer) truck should be here in a week or 2, and with both of those things I feel like there just *might* be a chance that this boat will actually see the water in the not-so-distant future. Fingers crossed...
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Looks like you have been really busy.
I’m working now for 2 months to get insurance. Have you started looking yet?
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I haven’t paid the insurance thing much attention other than seeing you guys chase it down. I did a bit of research that looks like a surveyor shouldn’t be that hard to line up, but I know nothing about the actual process or end result. My operating assumption was that I would only need a survey to insure beyond liability, maybe I am mistaken there though. The property assessor I talked to a week or so ago seemed convinced that I would be having a survey done at some point.
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I’m getting really tired of “we can find you something” only to wait days to weeks to find out “we reached out to all our underwriters and can’t find a place for you in the market”. Get ready for a good time!
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It's been 4 years since I started my GA project as of today, and I was hoping to launch today, but alas the boat gods did not shine their light on me. Very very soon though, probably within a week or 2 if things work out right.
I now have 3 separate sets of steering on order, one is finally showing as shipped and slated to arrive on Thursday. The hoses are run for that so that should be easy to get up and functional, fingers crossed. The steering fiasco has been mind numbing, not only is the yamaha electric actuator MIA for more than a year and a half, I finally caved and ordered a seastar hydraulic system, and a week later the company I ordered it from updated the order as 'on backorder with manufacturer, no ETA'. So then I waited a week or 2 for an update on that, nothing has come or updated, so I ended up spending a couple hundred more to order the same system on Amazon, shown as in stock. Once one arrives I will cancel the other, and will still wait on the yamaha one and update the boat when it finally comes in, if it ever does. I also ended up ordering the wrong hoses (not the kevlar ones for the seastar pro) so I had to return a set of those... on and on it goes, but hopefully things will be cleared up soon enough.
I did end up getting insurance through AAA and pulling out the boat with my new truck the other day because they wanted some pictures for the underwriters and I wanted to see exactly what I have gotten myself into with towing this thing. The whole rig is 58' long, I am currently waiting on my wide load permits from California. It's a big rig to tow, but it's not as bad as I thought it was going to be.
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That’s a good looking set up. I did the truck! Is it an oil burner or gas?
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We got the 7.3L gasser. My wife and I plan on getting a truck camper at some point, and I don’t think we are going to get anything really gnarly to tow, so the powerstroke just seemed like overkill. Plus I would hate to be somewhere remote and breakdown with all the stuff they pack into those things now, the 7.3 is nice and spacious and simple.
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I've been looking for a Godzilla gasser here. None around. How long did you have to wait for it? It really is a gorgeous ride, it looks like what I would pick
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Thanks, we are super happy with it for sure! Um, I ordered it in maybe January, and it was manufactured/delivered right in the tail end of the 2022 production, so I almost had to wait another 4-6 months for it. Nobody had much of any stock in super duty trucks, maybe one here or one there, but they were all powerstroke diesels and high trim, way more money than I wanted to spend (including the like 10-15k over msrp that all the dealers want for them right now). I got this one for msrp - $500, which ended up being several thousand less than msrp by the time the truck came, and all I had to do was sit and be patient for 9 or 10 months... good trade off I think...
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I took the boat down to the scales today, she weighed in at a dry weight of right around 5300 lbs. Boat and trailer were 6300. I got a bit of practice towing it around town, it's a really big boat :)
Tomorrow is the day with any luck that she finally gets a splash. There is a break in procedure for the motor that has a lot of putzing around for the first couple hours, so hoping to get that in and get all onboard systems verified or noted that they need attention, and hoping if that all goes well I can get a little taste of a full throttle hole shot and top speed before we have to head for the barn (after 2 hours of break in you can do short stints of full throttle running until you hit 10 hours total). My kid care has me not available to start heading to the launch until 12:30pm so I am going to be working against the clock, but we will see what we can get done. Weather looks nice, so we will see how it goes!
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I took Endless Horizon down to Long Beach today and went on a debugging cruise. Aside from a few small issues it went very well. This boat design is really incredible, it felt pretty agile, very stable, quick, safe, roomy, comfy... The list goes on. Hats off to Brian for his work on designing and creating this boat, it's an incredible platform. This community and forum is also an incredible resource, there is a wealth of helpful information on here and friendly and helpful folks who share their knowledge and love of building boats.
A few things I love about the design after a few hours of cruising around in no particular order:
- Getting on plane is almost indistinguishable from displacement cruising. You hit the throttle and it just kind of rises. At times I had a hard time telling if I was on plane other than looking at the speed and knowing I couldn't possibly not be.
- This boat is fasssst. I topped out my speed at 42 mph-ish, and that wasn't the top. I am curious at what speed I will porpoise or develop other limiters, but the motor and hull were completely stable at that speed so there was definitely more to be had. The 300 hp is a beast, tons of power, didn't feel like overkill.
- There is so much room, big house, big cockpit, big cabin... Very comfortable and cozy. We had a crew of 5, and I felt like everyone really had plenty of space, although weather gave us run of the whole boat so that definitely helped.
- Everything felt very stable and solid, handling was quite good although seas were small. The few wakes and chop we did take were handled with ease, the boat just cut right through it. I tried to get a taste of how much the boat had a tendency to broach but the seas were small enough that I couldn't really get a feel for it.
- Everyone wants to know what kind of boat it is. And everyone is completely surprised/disbelief when I tell them it's built from a stack of plywood and some buckets of glue and sheets of cloth. The cool factor is really pretty off the charts.
- I have a list of stuff below that I need fixed and I am confident that I can fix it, and that I won't have to take the boat into a shop and pay some guy thousands of dollars to fix it.
- Maybe most importantly, after coming on the cruise my wife really really loves the boat and is really excited to go on some cool adventures now... :)
Some things I have to work out:
- The boat is bow heavy, I didn't get to completely test it the way I intend to use it, specifically I have an 80 gallon bait tank that will add 650 lbs towards the stern, and I was quite light on fuel and had no ice in the fish box which is also well aft. I should probably add a kicker, and as I dial in the functionality of the boat I will start to pay a bit more attention to how it floats, for now I don't think it's a huge issue, the cockpit mostly drains even with it bow down. Worst case I will just have to tell my wife I need to put twins on it lol.
- When I put the boat in the keel entry point on the bow hung up on the trailer cross member (basically once the stern started to float the bow and trailer came together, and beat up the piece of wood running down the keel pretty bad. I think that probably relates to it being heavy on the bow, so maybe some weight aft will help that some, but before I pulled it I adjusted the trailer some, tried to lift the front and support the length a little better.
- My scupper design is crap, I think I need to change to how Todd and Chuck did their scuppers directly out the transom. I think I wanted to use the area where those would have been for some storage or something similar, but I think running them straight out the back is probably best, or at least significantly better than what I have now. My current design was basically a hole in the cockpit sole that drained into a box with a flap in it, that then drained out a hole in the side, but I feel like that design has too many internals and just too much hidden stuff where something can go wrong, plus replacing the flaps inside seems like it's going to be a nightmare...
- I need to lower my motor, so need to cut out a chunk of the transom to allow steering clearance. Hard steering and hole shots definitely had some cavitation happening, hopefully an inch or 2 lower will solve that.
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Wow and congratulatons!! We've all been waiting on your launch!!
Re; bow-heavy. Recall that the weight distribution shown in the -000x drawings have batteries and more than half the gas located behind the aft house bulkhead, and has short brackets and a kicker ... and in that config (half fuel, normal gear and 2-man crew), the boat trims up at the bow by 1-1/2". You'll find that if you add a kicker and fill your aft tank half full or more, that your trim will suddenly be correct. Weighing in at half the weight of a glass commercial boat in this class, fuel and gear location becomes a larger percentage of the boat's weight. The boat was designed to operate well from 'too stern heavy' all the way to 'too bow heavy' ... notice how it planes well, cuts chop, and is stable regardless of loading, and how much capacity the boat has. Better to start out a wee bit heavy in the bow than vice versa ... boats tend to gain weight in the stern over time and you also don't want it stern-low when a thousand pounds of humans (your 4-5 crew), ice, gear, and fish are in the stern. The number one way that boats founder is the taking-in of water over the stern ... capsize follows if the incoming wave is big enough. Better to have a little buffer...
Brian
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Json,
Wow, wow, wow! Soo impressive to see it in the water. Love the pole holders on the stern along with everything else.
You mention cavitation, I dont recall what size prop you have but you could try a larger diameter prop, I believe a 16" will fit but you would have to check.
It is also impressive with 5 people on board you went 42. Good times are ahead for you and crew, a lot of hard work going to pay off.
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Gonna have to break the speed record, currently held by Adrian P of Gresham, Oregon who went 44 mph with his ... :D
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Boat looks awesome, great job. Getting ready to build a visor like yours, did you use a piece of 8 inch piped and glassed as Brian suggests, or come up with a different method?
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She looks great! I’m with Brian for whatever that’s worth. I sure would not start butchering your transom just yet. 42 is smokin right along. I think Adrian’s speed record will not stand for long. Ask me how I know😜😜😜
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Thanks guys, feels good! I am itching to get her back on the water, it's going to be a long winter :)
I sure would not start butchering your transom just yet.
I have about an inch of room to lower before I start chopping, so perhaps that will fix things enough that I don't need to bring out the saws. However if my new actuator ever comes I think it requires a significant amount of clearance so I might need to go back to the drawing board at that point. Perhaps a bigger jack plate or bigger setback is the answer, but then my rigging tube might start hitting things...
did you use a piece of 8 inch piped and glassed as Brian suggests, or come up with a different method?
I basically used Brian's method, substituting a home brew corny keg for the piping called out in the manual. I think the diameter is a bit bigger on the corny keg (maybe 10 or 12" instead of the 8). Simple, effective, worked like a charm.
You mention cavitation, I dont recall what size prop you have but you could try a larger diameter prop, I believe a 16" will fit but you would have to check.
I ended up going with a Yamaha Saltwater 2 Series 3 blade 15.5" x 17 pitch that I found used on Ebay (the recommended starting point from my Yamaha rep). I didn't have engine data for some reason so I wasn't able to see what my max rpm was (hence why no max speed, didn't want to over-rev) so once I get that fixed and see how things go lowered an inch a bigger diameter prop might be in play... I do want to get a backup on board anyway.
Gonna have to break the speed record, currently held by Adrian P of Gresham, Oregon who went 44 mph with his ... :D
Records are made to be broken, sounds like a few of us are gunning for his now :)
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Like the beer keg solution. Will give it a try, thanks for the advise
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I used a small argon cylinder fwiw
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Like the beer keg solution. Will give it a try, thanks for the advise
When you get your pony keg, don't forget about the boat .... :D
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I'm curious about the speeds. Can we be clear about mph or kmph? 44 mph is only 38.2 kmph, and I've had mine up to 39.9 kmph with boat running dead stable.
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Dan, are you sure about your math? By my calcs 44 miles/hour is about 70 kilometers/hour.
At 39 km/hour is close to 24 miles/hour.
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I'm talking about nautical miles per hour. I'm pretty sure, but not certain, that that's what we're all talking about here, but you need to set your main computer and engine computers to nautical miles, then the "mph" and "mpg" measurements are based on nautical miles. I always use the kmph abbreviation to be super clear. Just curious mostly. I'm sure mine is not the fastest by a long shot as I'm propped for fuel efficiency rather than speed.
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True that ... too many speed units. I vote for nautical miles per hour... 1 nautical mile is 1.151 landlubber miles ... and nautical miles per hour is nmph
Let's get some video of all these FAST boats!!
bd
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What a beauty!!!! She looks very sexy on the water, your going to love it. Being up in the PNW waters I've had my Kodiak out in some pretty gnarly waters. I've run her pretty hard try to see if she will broach. So far not even a little hint of broaching. Not saying she won't broach just haven't seen any signs. I can tell you the 30' Marlin Grady White I had would have broached, I know from first had experience. I've been in enough nasty waters to burry the bow in a wave enough to have lots of green water up over the roof and onto the deck running out the scuppers as it should. What an amazing design!!!!!!!!!!!!
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Hey Jason where did you get your bait tank? What is the model number and how many gallons. I just ordered outriggers and need a bait tank. Izzy J is heading for Puerto Vallarta in February will be there a year or more. Traveling back and forth to the uS for work on occasion:)
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What a beauty!!!! She looks very sexy on the water, your going to love it. Being up in the PNW waters I've had my Kodiak out in some pretty gnarly waters. I've run her pretty hard try to see if she will broach. So far not even a little hint of broaching. Not saying she won't broach just haven't seen any signs. I can tell you the 30' Marlin Grady White I had would have broached, I know from first had experience. I've been in enough nasty waters to burry the bow in a wave enough to have lots of green water up over the roof and onto the deck running out the scuppers as it should. What an amazing design!!!!!!!!!!!!
You weren't skipping across the tops of waves again, were you? :o ;D 8) It's pretty tough to bury the bow of a Kodiak!
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Hey Jason where did you get your bait tank? What is the model number and how many gallons. I just ordered outriggers and need a bait tank. Izzy J is heading for Puerto Vallarta in February will be there a year or more. Traveling back and forth to the uS for work on occasion:)
I bought it from Mark Wisch at Pacific Edge: https://www.pacificedgetackle.com/
Mark is pretty much the pioneer of west coast bait systems, he is really really knowledgeable and has been building bait systems for many many years. I ordered a P80D https://www.pacificedgetackle.com/products/copy-of-pe60d which is 80 total gallons (2 40 gallon sides). I seriously considered the P120D but eventually landed on it being a bit too large in the cockpit for my liking. It probably would have worked just fine.
Blue water bait systems also look very nice, although I haven't ever used one or seen them in action. They are made a couple blocks from my house, and I always see them sanding them in their glass shop when I am out running...
That's cool that you are taking your boat to Mex, are you trailering it down there or gonna pound waves for a month?
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I'd like to add to the congratulations - sweet boat! These Kodiak models really satisfy the need to go bigger than the regular GA and still be manageable. I love the dimensions and the overall layout of it. Very nice work and have fun!
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What a beauty!!!! She looks very sexy on the water, your going to love it. Being up in the PNW waters I've had my Kodiak out in some pretty gnarly waters. I've run her pretty hard try to see if she will broach. So far not even a little hint of broaching. Not saying she won't broach just haven't seen any signs. I can tell you the 30' Marlin Grady White I had would have broached, I know from first had experience. I've been in enough nasty waters to burry the bow in a wave enough to have lots of green water up over the roof and onto the deck running out the scuppers as it should. What an amazing design!!!!!!!!!!!!
You weren't skipping across the tops of waves again, were you? :o ;D 8) It's pretty tough to bury the bow of a Kodiak!
hahaha not intentionally, just typical PNW waters steep and short time between swells then comes the occasional roller 2-3 foot higher out of nowhere...lol
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Hey Jason where did you get your bait tank? What is the model number and how many gallons. I just ordered outriggers and need a bait tank. Izzy J is heading for Puerto Vallarta in February will be there a year or more. Traveling back and forth to the uS for work on occasion:)
I bought it from Mark Wisch at Pacific Edge: https://www.pacificedgetackle.com/
Mark is pretty much the pioneer of west coast bait systems, he is really really knowledgeable and has been building bait systems for many many years. I ordered a P80D https://www.pacificedgetackle.com/products/copy-of-pe60d which is 80 total gallons (2 40 gallon sides). I seriously considered the P120D but eventually landed on it being a bit too large in the cockpit for my liking. It probably would have worked just fine.
Blue water bait systems also look very nice, although I haven't ever used one or seen them in action. They are made a couple blocks from my house, and I always see them sanding them in their glass shop when I am out running...
That's cool that you are taking your boat to Mex, are you trailering it down there or gonna pound waves for a month?
WOW supper nice tank!! Goes well with a super nice boat!! thanks for the info
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Brian, I am investigating chopping down the top of my transom to increase steering clearance with the jack plate I am using. How close can I cut the top of my transom to my top motor mounting bolts? How much wood do I need to leave between them and the top?
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Brian, I am investigating chopping down the top of my transom to increase steering clearance with the jack plate I am using. How close can I cut the top of my transom to my top motor mounting bolts? How much wood do I need to leave between them and the top?
The standard for motors in the size range that the GA takes is 2" from center of top holes to the edge of the cut-out directly above the top motor mount hole. I think any less than that will result in the mount rising higher than the bottom edge of the cut-out.. the motor needs space around the hole for proper support.
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Outstanding job. What a beauty. I never get tired of people asking who makes the boat. Some of the looks are so humorous. I made a small book of pictures I keep on the boat for non-believers. Enjoy that awesome boat!!
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Outstanding job. What a beauty. I never get tired of people asking who makes the boat. Some of the looks are so humorous. I made a small book of pictures I keep on the boat for non-believers. Enjoy that awesome boat!!
That's a great idea, I might have to borrow it!
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Brian, I am investigating chopping down the top of my transom to increase steering clearance with the jack plate I am using. How close can I cut the top of my transom to my top motor mounting bolts? How much wood do I need to leave between them and the top?
The standard for motors in the size range that the GA takes is 2" from center of top holes to the edge of the cut-out directly above the top motor mount hole. I think any less than that will result in the mount rising higher than the bottom edge of the cut-out.. the motor needs space around the hole for proper support.
Could you space the jack plate further from the transom and more or less gain your clearance?
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I will have to look. I think I start running into issues with the rigging tube clearing unless I get out past like maybe 8-10" of extension. But that may be more preferable as well because I am already trimming bow heavy, so moving the main back could benefit that... I also would be able to theoretically run the main in a higher position further from the transom. It's definitely something I can put into the mix of possible solutions. I am hoping the 3/4" I lowered it the other day solves my problems (although not super optimistic...)
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Boats are teeter-totters and these boats are light for their size. It's worth it to optimize the boat's balance. The bracket will slightly increase fuel mileage and does let you run the motor higher ... approx. 1" for each 12" of setback. BUT every boat's different. This is a starting point. Don't go crazy on the motor mount ... you want it just long enough to work (fix clearances, balance the boat) and no more ... stern-down boats are more dangerous than bow-down boats... expect to gain a couple of hundred pounds in the stern over time too ... most future mods and additions will be back there.
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Thanks Brian, definitely going to go the minimal route if I go this direction. I think I can get the clearance with a 4" or 6" bracket in addition to the 4" jack plate I already have. I am maybe going to give it another debugging run here in a couple weeks once I fix the scuppers and actually lower the motor while I am on the water to see precisely how low it needs to be before I commit to any approach. I am going to try to add some weight to the fish box and fill the bait tank as well to make sure I am not stern down at that point either.
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Thanks Brian, definitely going to go the minimal route if I go this direction. I think I can get the clearance with a 4" or 6" bracket in addition to the 4" jack plate I already have. I am maybe going to give it another debugging run here in a couple weeks once I fix the scuppers and actually lower the motor while I am on the water to see precisely how low it needs to be before I commit to any approach. I am going to try to add some weight to the fish box and fill the bait tank as well to make sure I am not stern down at that point either.
Perfect! Some people put sand bags in the boat to simulate different loads and load locations...
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Thanks Brian, definitely going to go the minimal route if I go this direction. I think I can get the clearance with a 4" or 6" bracket in addition to the 4" jack plate I already have. I am maybe going to give it another debugging run here in a couple weeks once I fix the scuppers and actually lower the motor while I am on the water to see precisely how low it needs to be before I commit to any approach. I am going to try to add some weight to the fish box and fill the bait tank as well to make sure I am not stern down at that point either.
Perfect! Some people put sand bags in the boat to simulate different loads and load locations...
I put sand bags in my motor well when I trailered the boat before I got my second motor put on. It worked well
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I added 6" to my boat's length today (for 10" total bracket, including the original 4" jack plate). This ought to solve my prop height issue, provided I don't have any issues with the rigging tube hitting the transom now. :) Always something...
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I added 6" to my boat's length today (for 10" total bracket, including the original 4" jack plate). This ought to solve my prop height issue, provided I don't have any issues with the rigging tube hitting the transom now. :) Always something...
I had same issue with an 8" bracket. Sometimes I turn the motors one way or the other the full amount which puts the control harness at an angle which helps it not hitting the transom
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Your boat turned out really nice, congratulations on a job well done . Now that you are on the water how do like the way the boat performs.
Are you going to chase bluefin.
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Thanks Scott! I haven't been able to get out again yet, I have been plugging away on the list of things I wanted to fix/improve and waiting on a weather window. I am getting through my todo list, so now just waiting out these waves of storms for the right day to head down again. I definitely intend to target those bluefin if they are still around, I hope I am not a year too late. This last summer would have been killer, they spent months behind Catalina and people were consistently picking them up on the troll. Seems like now they are out at tanner/cortez bank area if they are still around at all, which is a 100+ mile run so a (lot) bit further than I would like to go at this stage.
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Next season for big tuna would be fine , that will give you time to figure out the boat , I have always wanted to go after some of the bigger tuna. I might have to get our boat down there if the fishing is good. We have already talked about taking the boat to Catalina Island . Hope the weather lets up on California soon .
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You've got the right boat for that bluefin run. But you're right at, say an average 20 mph (16 mph in bad slop), that's 5 hours out and 5 hours in ... 10 hours of driving and not much energy left for fishing! I know that Chuck in Myrtle Beach, OR takes his 26-footer out 150 miles and back though, not sleeping on the water, but at somewhere around 70+ miles out ... it's a whole new kind of trip and I hope you're OK sleeping on a sea anchor and radar alarms... :)
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Ya, 10+ hours of trudging through a washing machine sounds pretty miserable haha... Maybe on the right day, but seems like most afternoons get pretty snotty, even when the morning is glass. I can probably find something closer to keep myself entertained, and if not there is always some project waiting to be done on the boat... :)
Catalina is great Scott, it's a great destination, and there are lots of other islands in range too in case you burn yourself out on Cat.
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Ya, 10+ hours of trudging through a washing machine sounds pretty miserable haha... Maybe on the right day, but seems like most afternoons get pretty snotty, even when the morning is glass. I can probably find something closer to keep myself entertained, and if not there is always some project waiting to be done on the boat... :)
Catalina is great Scott, it's a great destination, and there are lots of other islands in range too in case you burn yourself out on Cat.
At least going on a 100 mile run in a GA will only burn half the gas as the big factory boat guys:)
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I’ll be there this October. Won’t be at Catalina. Will likely hit Santa Cruz and Santa Barbara. It’s gonna be a blast and I can’t wait for it
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Jason, I just saw the fly by of your new boat. Absolutely gorgeous! Perhaps you could post a link here, very inspirational!
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Sure, I thought I had shared this one previously, perhaps I did not... My brother did a little drone work while we were gearing up to kick off the maiden voyage. Short document here: https://youtu.be/3Ax34KfSRS0
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Awesome fly by vid! I hadn't seen that before!
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I took my boat out on shakedown cruise part dos yesterday. It performed awesome. I am pretty pretty pretty happy with it, I think it's going to be an excellent fisher and camper.
Putting the motor on the bracket did great for fixing the issue with cavitation. It didn't really fix the bow down orientation unloaded, but that got better with a bait tank full of water, and I bet it will get even better with a hundred+ lbs of ice in the fish box. The only thing I didn't really like about the motor on the bracket is that if I have to clear the prop for some reason I am probably going to get wet. After I put the boat in I picked up a plastic trash bag on the prop somehow, and when I went to clear it off it was waaaaaaaay back there, and I almost went for a swim trying to take it off. Maybe I will get some pincher extensions or use a gaff or something. Or, bring a swimsuit!
Fuel efficiency was about inline with what I thought it would be. Cruising I was getting a little north of 3 mpg at times, which I think is fairly realistic if I am lightly loaded in most calm sea situations.
Hole shot is amazing now, this thing scoots... It's a bit underpropped, wide open-ish I was really flirting with 6k+ rpm, but I think it will be about right when I am loaded up for a trip. My speed topped out at 41 knots (47 mph), no stability issues.
After getting most everything checked and confirmed working my wife brought my kids down for an afternoon cruise. We all had a great time, running around, trading the captain's chair, checking things out around Long Beach. Fun times had by all, and it seems like more fun times on the not-so-distant horizon.
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More boatier pics...
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Nice pics and what an inspiration to other builders. Very impressive numbers on your speed and consumption. Taking turns at the helm reminds me of the British old school "bred to the helm"
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Json your boat looks amazing!!! You should be proud of a job well done.
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Thanks guys! I doubled down and went hooping for some lobsters last night with my friend, his son, and my son. We didn't really attack it with any real determination, but went and spent the evening in the wind shadow of Island Freeman in LA Harbor. Pulled up a couple shorts and tried things out at night. It's going to take some getting used to with the size, but I think it's going to work great. The one thing that is going to take some work though is the windage. This boat gets pushed around a ton, makes it really hard to do any slow maneuvering, especially around rocks, ropes like last night, putting the boat on the trailer, etc. I think it's going to eventually annoy me enough that I get a jet thruster system, maybe this one: https://www.jetthruster.com/new-jet-thruster-micro . I have to think about how I am going to make that work though, it's going to be kind of major surgery. I also need to get radar, I had a close call with an unlit buoy in the dark last night.
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Yup, these are big boats and light for their size, which is one of the main factors that let's you get double the mileage of commercial equivalents. You might look into the bow thruster installation by Chuck Mazzola ... he was the first to put one in and it's a big help. Plus practice of course! Congrats again on your Big Boat hitting the water!
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I like your pulpit. I wish I had done something similar. Having said that I do like mine
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Wow what a nice craft you have built, you should be proud. Give your self some practice and time you will get a feeling for the boat but that jet thruster unit looks interesting for sure.
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That Jet Thruster definitely gets my interest ... it's about time that more selection for shallow-V boats is hitting the market! I'd love to see how it would work in a GA ... it seems ideal!
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That Jet Thruster definitely gets my interest ... it's about time that more selection for shallow-V boats is hitting the market! I'd love to see how it would work in a GA ... it seems ideal!
I saw those Jet Thrusters when I was researching typical bow thrusters for my build. I'm sure they would be amazing, I just couldn't spend 3 times the amount of a normal thruster
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Jason
She turned out so beautiful.....well done.
Your 3.3 mpg is impressive at cruise, you are getting about 30% better than I do. That said I expected to lose 20% just because of having twin's, I knew that from the start. I'm sure I'm a bit heavier also so all sounds about right. I'm still getting a bit more than twice the mpg as I got in the 30' Grady White I used to own, so I'm a happy camper.
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Thanks Chuck! Ya, the 3x price tag is the real deterrent. I am definitely looking at all options, including the tunnel setup I asked you about that you have on your boat.
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I went to Catalina for the first time on Friday morning to get a gauge on what it's going to take to put together a camping trip over there and test out some systems and solutions. My boat performed spectacularly on the crossing. I made over 30 knots out and over 21 back in the snottier afternoon conditions, which the boat took like a champ. The efficiency was quite a bit lower than I had previously been getting playing around in LA harbor, so I was thankful I put extra fuel on board when I decided it was time to head back. I chalked it up to having a full bait tank (another 1000 lbs or so) but after emptying the bait tank for the trip back I still wasn't getting anywhere close to 3 mpg. The entire trip of 80+ miles saw 2.41 mpg avg. I identified some new projects to make it more camp-able, hoping to get that all dialed in before summer. Just in time for the fish to start showing up!
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Awesome! Glad you got it out on a cool trip! Interesting note on your mileage. Brian designed the hull for optimum efficiency around 20-22 knots, and my long-term experience lines up with that perfectly. If I go over 22 knots, mileage goes down, and up around 30 knots the mileage plummets rapidly. My long-term best cruising average is 2.7 nmpg. I always end up with plenty of extra fuel in the tank, so if I cut it closer in fuel I might get 2.8, and I'm perhaps still the lightest GA on the water. The myth that these boats will get 3+ nmpg long term seems unfounded to me, at least in real world seas and conditions with tides, wind, chop, a dinghy and sometimes paddleboard on the roof, etc.
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Awesome! Glad you got it out on a cool trip! Interesting note on your mileage. Brian designed the hull for optimum efficiency around 20-22 knots, and my long-term experience lines up with that perfectly. If I go over 22 knots, mileage goes down, and up around 30 knots the mileage plummets rapidly. My long-term best cruising average is 2.7 nmpg. I always end up with plenty of extra fuel in the tank, so if I cut it closer in fuel I might get 2.8, and I'm perhaps still the lightest GA on the water. The myth that these boats will get 3+ nmpg long term seems unfounded to me, at least in real world seas and conditions with tides, wind, chop, a dinghy and sometimes paddleboard on the roof, etc.
Yes, it's normal that once you get out into the 'real seas' that your mileage will go down. Dropping from 3 to 2.4 offshore seems pretty normal to me. Recall, as you know, that the number one factor in terms of efficiency is displacement (weight). Hull design is secondary to that. And if loading the boat up, the further aft that you can get the weight, the better the efficiency will be - 2/3rds of (any) planing boat is ahead of the center of gravity and weight forward results in more horsepower (or harder working, lower efficiency) to lift the boat on plane and keep it there ... keep the weight aft. This is also why emptying your live well didn't make a big difference - the weight was/is pretty far aft. And Dan, for the record, the original design ... the 26 foot standard Great Alaskan does get 3 to 5 mpg when loaded for day trips or short camping trips. The bigger boats weigh more, have more surface area in contact with the water, run bigger motors etc ...
Brian
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Good info. I have been thinking of ways to move weight aft, specifically because I am looking at getting a bow rail done and I am not sure how much weight that's going to add up front in addition to what's already there. I am wishing I would have put in 2 fuel tanks instead of the 10 foot long single, because I think that exacerbates the issue to a degree. The 2 things I can come up with are the house batteries (120lbs) and the inverter (65 lbs), which are both inline with the helm. I think I can find a way to move the house batteries aft (albeit with some pretty major surgery), pretty close to the back of the cockpit, the inverter is going to be a little more challenging because it needs ventilation to keep from overheating. Beyond that there isn't a ton of stuff up there besides the giant winch on the front of the boat. I am going to have to look a little closer at how it trims loaded and ready for a trip (with 3 or 4 people in the cockpit), I think the bait tank being full helps but doesn't quite get there, hopefully some ice in the fish box also helps. I am not really seeing any real ill effects of the bow heavy trim, at least that I have noticed, other than the bow being low looks kind of silly. In any event, work in progress...
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Doing the best that you can is always a good idea, but I wouldn't fret too much. If it's trimming up or down a little, you won't see it and it'll perform well regardless.
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Mine is a tad bow down too. Maybe 2” in 20’. No one has even noticed. Little more with sleepers in the cuddy. The stern is steady having some lbs.
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Mine is a tad bow down too. Maybe 2” in 20’. No one has even noticed. Little more with sleepers in the cuddy. The stern is steady having some lbs.
Every time I see a little bow-down trim, I wanna pull my hair out! As mentioned before, you measure the waterline from where the bow cuts water aft to where the waterline ends on the transom. That's your at-rest waterline length, and it's a design parameter (the 'design waterline' or DWL). For a PLANING hull, the window where the CG should land is 60-65% of that waterline aft of where the bow cuts water. When the CG is in this window on the GA, the boat trims up at the bow over 2". In any case, the CG location highlights that 2/3rds of the boat is f'w'd of the CG and that boats loaded for bear ... er, camping ... and are outfitted better than most single-wides are very likely to be heavy f'w'd ... hence the downward trim. Note, however, that the Great Alaskan was designed very conservatively and it performs equally well when the bow trim is plus or minus about 3" at the bow versus the stern. I may produce a 'camper special' version of the boat(s) at some point and include some minor mods ... slightly wider amidships or slightly forward, perhaps slightly narrower at the stern, evaluate the hydrostatics with a full suite of items in the house and cuddy to determine trim, allow the stringers to slope upward towards the bow by the trim angle (the 'new level definition' for the boat). We're trying to work a bit of magic here ... load up a planing hull as though it were one of those fancy beauts designed by Sam Devlin, but keep the CG in the right window and achieve the most optimal trim. People are adding a lot more weight forward than I'd imagined for the original design ... BTW, to see perfection on the water in terms of CG and trim angle, go see Dave Collette-Paule (sp?)'s boat in Homer, AK. He's got a super sweet 26-footer that I fell in love with after just one ride. Nice guy too. Both him and his wife (and wife's mother) - make sure you insist on their homemade pizza if you visit! In any case, the saga never ends and I'll continue to tune the design over time. In the mean time, keep that weight aft! As I've suggested many times (but nobody has done it), consider NO forward tank if you're going to build a camping boat and use the whole under-deck area in the cockpit for fuel, and just behind the aft house bulkhead (or even right through the bulkhead), add saddle tanks under the sheer deck on either side to gain back the fuel capacity lost by eliminating the forward fuel tank. That alone will trim out the boat nicely. Put fish wells or live tanks on TOP of the cockpit deck. I'm rambling ... I'd say "to make a long story short" but ... too late!
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I hear your frustration. I’m judging my bow down at rest by the line of the bottom paint on my boat. Your 100% right about adding much stuff to the inside. Dan B raised the bar for comfort and handy stuff. I would have saved 1000$$$$$$ if he built after me. Having said that, I have not 1 single complaint. You can only do what you can do and we’re going to do what we do. There’s only so much room for “stuff”. Each decision dictates the answer to the next question. Who wants a cookie cutter boat? That’s why the GA is so awesome. It seeMs to be pretty forgiving. The guy who designed it must have known what he was doing!
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In my experience, the trim is more aesthetics than anything. The boat works the same, same performance, same everything from what I can see. Almost all 'camper' boats are displacement vessels (re my reference to Sam Devlin's beautiful boats, people converting trawlers into live-aboards etc). It's a battle when you're trying to do it in a high speed planing hull ... it takes real effort to keep the CG in the right 60-65% waterline location. But as mentioned before, I designed the boat very conservatively, expecting people to do a wide variety of things with them, and to load them in a wide variety of ways ... and boy have they! But pay close attention ... no bad behavior, bad habits, or inability to plane etc etc has ever been identified with these boats and they've been on the water since about 2005 ... 18 years ago now. They're proven. I'm not aware of any other DIY boat that performs as well or provides so much for the money.
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I consider my boat actually quite simple, plus the cabin is largely built with foam-core instead of plywood so my cabin is very light. One single 85 AH AGM house battery, no shore power or AC system with inverter, no propane system, no built-in cooktop or range, no built-in water tank/plumbing, no head. My boat always performs measurably better (by way of mileage and speed over ground improving) when I trim the engine and use the trim tabs to get the bow down slightly from it's natural position, so I'm clearly not bow heavy. When I sleep I'm actually a bit too much bow-up and still wish I had built my bunks with a bit of a taper rising aft.
One of the main changes over the past couple years is that people are (rightfully so) installing lithium house batteries, which can go inside the cabin since they do not have to be ventilated. The problem is that they have ended up under the helm seat, which moves the considerable weight of a house battery system from somewhere like just aft of the aft cabin bulkhead (where Brian designed it I think) to far forward of Brian's CG. I encourage people to put the lithium battery system in a locker just forward of the aft cabin bulkhead, with inverter just aft of this bulkhead (which means very short large wire runs), putting all this weight right at the CG, but so far have been outvoted because this is prime real estate for hanging and/or wet gear lockers/heads that people want.
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I consider my boat actually quite simple, plus the cabin is largely built with foam-core instead of plywood so my cabin is very light. One single 85 AH AGM house battery, no shore power or AC system with inverter, no propane system, no built-in cooktop or range, no built-in water tank/plumbing, no head. My boat always performs measurably better (by way of mileage and speed over ground improving) when I trim the engine and use the trim tabs to get the bow down slightly from it's natural position, so I'm clearly not bow heavy. When I sleep I'm actually a bit too much bow-up and still wish I had built my bunks with a bit of a taper rising aft.
One of the main changes over the past couple years is that people are (rightfully so) installing lithium house batteries, which can go inside the cabin since they do not have to be ventilated. The problem is that they have ended up under the helm seat, which moves the considerable weight of a house battery system from somewhere like just aft of the aft cabin bulkhead (where Brian designed it I think) to far forward of Brian's CG. I encourage people to put the lithium battery system in a locker just forward of the aft cabin bulkhead, with inverter just aft of this bulkhead (which means very short large wire runs), putting all this weight right at the CG, but so far have been outvoted because this is prime real estate for hanging and/or wet gear lockers/heads that people want.
I was referring to the fridge, winch, Wallas, and solar mainly. I didn’t even know I needed that stuff until I saw it on your boat. I’m very glad you got there before me! I have those goodies too and wouldn’t be without any of them now.
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Great post, Dan. I designed the Kodiak, based on the original Great Alaskan, to be longer and have more stern capacity ... a work boat, with more crew and gear in the stern that you'd typically find in a GA built for a couple to cruise in. It seems most are far more interested in the cruiser concept rather than the work boat, which means I should tweak the design to support that type of usage. Building house and cuddy sides and roof with foam-core, moving the aft cuddy bulkhead (and whole pilot house) aft by a foot, chine flats widest f'w'd and tapering narrower aft (perhaps to the original GA chine flat width and then use the same transom), and add information to the manuals that show green zones for the heaviest items, yellow and red zones further from the CG. Perhaps by default, raise the cockpit deck a goodly amount and specify a large aft belly tank that uses this full volume ... suggest saddle tanks for more range and capacity instead of a forward belly tank. Lots of ideas. I'll start by adding less-ambiguous guidelines to the manuals...
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Brian, I love that you share your thoughts on the boat's design and how you can or have tuned things to get a certain weight balance. This is super helpful to all of us building these things. Thanks!
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Thanks for the kind words, Dan. Your contributions to the cause have been fantastic and MUCH appreciated too. We'll have to meet up at Moose's Tooth or somewhere next time my wife and I come up ...
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After speaking with Brian some I have decided to try to get my trim in better balance. I built with a few misunderstandings that were amplified as my build went on, which are probably only going to get worse as I continue to outfit the boat moving forward. The goal of my build was to create first and foremost a fishing boat, with a lot of space in the cockpit. I pushed my house forward and shrank the cuddy to some degree in order to maximize the space aft, which was the first item that started the issue. Then I positioned my fuel tank in reference to the moved forward aft ph bulkhead which was forward of the cg. I used a single 10' center fuel cell that I positioned 6" further forward still in order to offset the bait tank I was going to use, which would be 80-120 gallons, so 750-1000 lbs, but it turned out that my bait tank actually landed just about on the CG, so the offset only served to further amplify the issue. With the length of the fuel cell, the bow heavy trim causes the fuel to pool forward, which amplifies it even further still. Finally, I put an EZ rebel 5 on the bow, and 22 lb anchor, and combined with a rather light weight yamaha outboard, the end result is a pretty forward heavy trim. After conferring with Brian, we came up with a plan of items that I can consider to recalibrate the approximate trim of my boat. I used the CG that he gave me and did some computation about the net effect that different items will have on the trim of the boat.
CG on my boat will be approximated at 9.5 ft forward of the transom
Bow influencers -
Fuel tank (1/2 full 585 lbs of fuel, approximating the cg of where the fuel sits by moving it forward a bit to compensate for the pooling effect): +2.5 ft <- CG, 1462.5 ft lbs of torque
Anchor system: 172 lbs, +17.5 ft <- CG, 3010 ft lbs torque
Inverter/charger: 55 lbs, +8.5 ft <- CG, 467 ft lbs torque
House batteries: 84 lbs, +7.5 ft <- CG, 630 ft lbs torque
Stern influencers -
Starter battery: 63 lbs, -7 ft -> CG, 434 ft lbs torque
Bracket: 63 lbs, -10 ft -> CG, 630 ft lbs torque
Motor: 560 lbs, -11.5 ft -> CG, 6440 ft lbs torque
Brian concluded that the fuel tank and the winch were the biggest offenders, which they turned out to be. So, I put together a list of potential things that would influence a stern down trim, and am thinking I will start to try to negate the effects of the torque applied by those big offenders.
Adding 4" to motor bracket of current outboard nets an additional 168 ft lbs of torque to stern
adding a 25 hp yamaha kicker (150 lbs) nets 1500 ft lbs of torque
moving the batteries aft to within a foot of the transom nets 1344 ft lbs of torque
moving the inverter to about the same place as the batteries nets 852 ft lbs of torque
adding a 40 gallon fuel cell where I currently have a fish box nets 1560 ft lbs of torque (noting that this would actually do far more, since this fuel almost always would be also removed from the front tank)
replace my current outboard with a pair of yamaha 150s nets 4110 ft lbs of torque
The values were a bit surprising to me, specifically how little correction I would gain putting the motor on a bigger bracket. If I install a kicker and move the batteries and the inverter aft I will offset the whole influence of the anchor system. The batteries wouldn't be difficult but the inverter has ventilation requirements that will make it a bit more challenging. Or I can just go for the gusto and put twins on it. :) I think my wife will probably approve of option 1 far sooner than option 2.
I think my next step is to do a little verification down at the launch, put the boat in the water, and see how much a specified amount of torque will influence the trim, like put a couple 200 lb people on the swim step and see how it trims then (which would apply 3600 ft lbs of torque aft) to see if the work will get me there or not. Either way, I am getting my winter projects lined up!
As a side note, I ended up selling my first trailer (kokopelli 7k gross) and getting a new trailer custom built for the boat by west coast trailers here in town that's 10k gross. The owner Wayne measured everything, moved the position of the axles forward a bit, and was able to fit it to my boat much better. It's wider, a bit shorter, and far more stout. My old trailer was built for a cigarette boat, never fit quite right, and had a receiver that was rated for 500 lbs which I had more than 1200 lbs on. I didn't realize how badly I was white knuckling towing until I pulled my boat home on the new rig, it tows like a dream now. The tongue is still heavier than I would like but hopefully some of these improvements will also get that more in line. I initially reached out to them with hopes that they could move my axles forward on my kokopelli, which wasn't really that feasible, then started talking about rigging it with heavier axles, and ultimately it was going to cost as much to do the work as just getting a new trailer would. End result was expensive but is considerably more safe. Every time since then that I have towed the boat I am really happy I made the choice.
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If the inverter really is best off in the house, for ventilation, perhaps just moving it to just inside the aft house bulkhead would at least reduce it's negative affect?
2X 200# people on the swim step ... or just me alone! Ha!
Let us know, in inches at the bow, how the trim changes for a given weight on the stern ... that'll calibrate your efforts.
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quote: As mentioned before, you measure the waterline from where the bow cuts water aft to where the waterline ends on the transom. That's your at-rest waterline length, and it's a design parameter (the 'design waterline' or DWL). For a PLANING hull, the window where the CG should land is 60-65% of that waterline aft of where the bow cuts water.
I may be a little slow, if Json or anyone measures that at rest waterline do you compare it to the overall length of the boat to see if the CG is 60-65% or?
Heavy bow = longer at rest waterline I understand that.
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quote: As mentioned before, you measure the waterline from where the bow cuts water aft to where the waterline ends on the transom. That's your at-rest waterline length, and it's a design parameter (the 'design waterline' or DWL). For a PLANING hull, the window where the CG should land is 60-65% of that waterline aft of where the bow cuts water.
I may be a little slow, if Json or anyone measures that at rest waterline do you compare it to the overall length of the boat to see if the CG is 60-65% or?
Heavy bow = longer at rest waterline I understand that.
Yup, those are the magic numbers. As far as trim goes, it's the combination of the center of buoyancy (CB) and the center of gravity (CG) that determines it. Both move with loading and different trim angles. And to complicate matters, every boat is different and the only way to predict exactly what the trim will be would require a very detailed center of gravity analysis ... every teensy thing that's in the boat goes into that spreadsheet. BUT, to some degree on that, we're splitting hairs. Knowing approximately where the CG should be and balancing weights on either side of it (fore/aft that is) is a rule of thumb kind of thing ... hence json's upcoming exercise in putting a known amount of weight on the stern and measuring the resulting change in trim. I'm happy if the end result in trim ranges from 2" down at the bow to about 3" up at the bow - If your boat's in that range and you don't like how it looks then paint a new bootstripe or waterline on the boat and keep going. I also like to point out that these boats are light for their size and that weight distribution has greater impact on them than on a big heavy boat, e.g. an 11,000# 26-ft Orca or similar ... which is fine and one of the main factors that results in higher mileage (efficiency) ... but just be educated on the topic. Example) Gonna sleep in the boat? You'll be bow-down all night and it might rain ... block water routes forward and back that up with a small bilge pump under the cuddy deck/floor or forward end of the house decking, oh and don't drain anchor wells or other things into the bilge .... keep'r dry!
PS: Due to these recent discussions, I'm going to add to the contruction manuals to clarify this stuff and to help people achieve the boat of their dreams as easily as possible.
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Hello json,
I was wondering what the turn around time on your trailer was? I was thinking about talking to West Coast Trailers based on your post. Sounds like you are happy with it. Do you know if they have to measure the boat in person? Thanks.
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Hello json,
I was wondering what the turn around time on your trailer was? I was thinking about talking to West Coast Trailers based on your post. Sounds like you are happy with it. Do you know if they have to measure the boat in person? Thanks.
I think they had mine done in maybe 6 or 7 weeks. The owner Wayne measured my boat, so I think you should be able to tell him how yours differs from mine (29’ Kodiak) and I have to think that should give him what he needs to get one built for you. I love mine. They did a great job on it.