Glacier Boats of Alaska - Builder's Forums

Great Alaskan and Boat Building => Projects - Glacier Boats of Alaska boat projects => Topic started by: json on November 20, 2018, 10:33:38 AM

Title: Outdoor build of GA Kodiak, Orange, CA
Post by: json on November 20, 2018, 10:33:38 AM
Hi all,

I have recently started building a GA. I live in southern California, and am lucky enough to have a pretty decent spot to build a boat. My city (Orange) is somewhat a bunch of sticklers about things though, to the point where they made me build a 6 foot fence to make a shop yard if I was going to be building anything in my driveway. I am pretty sure they won't let me build a temporary shelter for a project like this (some people might think it's an eyesore?), so that said what am I going to run into if I do a lot of this build outside? The temperature is pretty mild, there is direct sunlight though, and some things concern me like condensation on things like the jig or pieces of wood that I have yet to encapsulate. I know many people who contribute here build in enclosed shops in the pac nw (I am from a portland suburb so it's definitely a stark contrast to the weather we receive here). My weather very rarely gets below freezing and we get very little rain. It's typically sunny and 70.

I guess the long and short of it is what things should I be aware of / trying to prevent when I am building outside? Is moisture in the air going to be of concern? Can I cover my project in a tied down tarp when I am not working on it to sufficiently protect it from the elements? I can build a lot of the sub-assemblies in my shop but it's only 25x25 so I don't quite have the room in there. Any ideas/advise would be extremely welcome.

Thanks!

Jason
Title: Re: Outdoor build of GA
Post by: Brian.Dixon on November 20, 2018, 11:31:53 AM
The process will be one of those one step at a time things, figuring it out as you go.  You're not the first though ... I know a guy in Alaska who built his outside.  He tried to keep the coating down to a minimum when there was direct sunlight on the project and that sort of thing, e.g. coat late afternoon or early evening (paint or epoxy) when it's cooling and dry.  He did have his project get rained on right after adding a fresh coat of epoxy to the sheer decks ... it was sort of funny though, because the rain created a natural anti-skid dimpled surface that turned out pretty cool.  The rain just bounces off the wet epoxy.  He did go ahead an add another coat later though, once it was dry.

Sometimes you can violate CC&Rs and get the HOA cops after you if you need to in order to get a stage of the process done.  I would view such things as a temporary cost to pay while you finish up the project.  Fines usually aren't too bad and you only have to pay them off before you sell the house.... for example, plan ahead on things like painting the exterior and then build a temporary shelter that you leave up for a month .... do your work and then take it down .... pay the fines if there are any and move on.  So?  :)

Some have built in the garage for 90% of the build (all but the top half of the pilot house) and have had the building jig on wheels so you could roll or rotate it out, work on it and put it back.  Others have built temporary 'extensions' out of tarp or plywood on the front of their garage to extend the boat working area out onto the driveway.  If the HOA complains, tell them you're taking it down as soon as you can... keep'm on a string :)

Brian

Title: Re: Outdoor build of GA
Post by: json on November 20, 2018, 06:11:30 PM
Thanks for weighing in Brian. You bring up good points about just ignoring or leading the city enforcers on to get the stuff done and chalking any fines up to part of the cost of acquiring a bad ass boat. It sounds like a good tactic to use honestly, I will definitely keep that in mind. Also hearing that someone built a GA outside in AK makes me feel a lot better about the prospects of building outside. If he could get it from getting inundated with water I should be able to do the same I imagine (like I said, not much rain). I saw that a gentleman built a Tolman jumbo in a boat yard in San Diego under a costco canopy, I could see that type of thing getting leveled in a bout of heavy wind but with the right seasonal planning maybe I could get it up and down before it became an issue. Anyways, thanks again for your ideas. I am sure I will have many more questions moving forward, sounds like this is the place to ask them.
Title: Re: Outdoor build of GA
Post by: Brian.Dixon on November 21, 2018, 06:11:36 AM
Another viable option (check the rules) is to consider finishing up in a storage unit type shelter .... the roof-only type where boats and RVs get stored.  Might have to get a small portable generator for some work, but for outfitting, painting, and that sort of thing, this might be another option.  If it violates the rules however, then there's a lot of liability parked around you in a place like that .... but for some aspects of finishing up, it can work (once the boat's on a trailer.  You could even park it there, bring it home to work on in the driveway, then haul it back.  Sometimes you have to be creative but where there's a will, there's a way.

Brian

Title: Re: Outdoor build of GA
Post by: davidnolan on November 26, 2018, 12:07:50 PM
that's perfect really.... once you get the hang of it its no big deal... Id say S CA is perfect.  Direct sunlight and high temps might set off glue fast... there are workarounds... its an easier problem than cold for sure.      you could get bugs in the glue... sand them off.   I built outside in temperate NJ andstarted in march... one night I had snow on my tarp.   a good compromise is one of thse 8 by 16 taprs    put two together and stretch the legs out..... its removeable....  talk to your neighbors first if you think its an issue... other wise a tarp is doable....


do it.  you wont regret it

I glassed yest in 50 degree heat and had to use a weed burner to pre heat the wood...
Title: Re: Outdoor build of GA
Post by: json on November 29, 2018, 05:50:16 PM
Hey David, thanks for the info! My thoughts are inline with what you are saying here, so good to hear it confirmed. :) It's a big project to jump into but I may never have a spot that's suitable in the future so I might as well dive in and try to make it happen now. I might make some kind of a-frame over the project that I can drape tarps over when I am not working on the project (keep the tarps off of glue and the project out of the elements as best as possible and whatnot), and just remove them when I am busy doing stuff.
Title: Re: Outdoor build of GA
Post by: Cannon on December 08, 2018, 02:19:42 PM
I think the primary object of this venture is to just do it! Boats have been built for centuries under all imaginable conditions. We tend to overthink everything when building a boat, but the key to it all is just to seriously apply ourselves and start. Procrastination is the biggest killer of dreams and the start of mediocrity! You can do this!
Title: Re: Outdoor build of GA
Post by: json on December 14, 2018, 02:09:51 PM
Thanks for the wise words Cannon. I can definitely see where overthinking could be a huge time sink. I have been working on the project for a month or 2 when I can (got the stem, shelves done and working currently on the transom), but with 2 small kids and 2 jobs sucking up 60 hours a week it's hard to find time. I am hoping the 2 job thing changes in the not too distant future, in the meantime I am just plugging away where I can and trying to just keep the project moving forward.
Title: Re: Outdoor build of GA
Post by: Brian.Dixon on December 18, 2018, 06:16:30 AM
Thanks for the wise words Cannon. I can definitely see where overthinking could be a huge time sink. I have been working on the project for a month or 2 when I can (got the stem, shelves done and working currently on the transom), but with 2 small kids and 2 jobs sucking up 60 hours a week it's hard to find time. I am hoping the 2 job thing changes in the not too distant future, in the meantime I am just plugging away where I can and trying to just keep the project moving forward.

That's the main thing ... keep making progress whenever you can, and it'll get done :)   Unless you're retired, most have busy schedules while building .... You'll forget all about it after the boat's done

Brian

Title: Re: Outdoor build of GA
Post by: json on February 21, 2019, 03:39:21 PM
As summer is approaching I am getting ready to move this show outside. :) So far I have been using Ebond 1285 with the standard hardener. What is the pros/cons of using a slower hardener when I move into the heat of summer? My next order will likely be 15 gallons, so I don't want to get a big bucket of 1285 hardener and find out that it gels way to fast in the summer. I don't mind waiting the extra time to cure honestly (I can just spread components out/work on something else while I wait) and can keep a gallon of the faster stuff around, but am thinking about going with the slow hardener unless there is something fundamentally less optimal or some shortcoming that I am overlooking. Any advice or experiences shared would be awesome, thanks in advance.
Title: Re: Outdoor build of GA
Post by: Brian.Dixon on February 21, 2019, 03:59:52 PM
There's nothing fundamentally wrong with the different speed hardeners, e.g. strength and flexibility.  That said, you'll have to estimate temperature ranges that you will work in, allow the epoxy to cure in, look at pot times for the different hardeners that you'll be using, and run it all past eBond's technical support and let them guide.  For sure, you don't want part of the epoxy curing in direct sunlight and part in the shade ... in fact, you should always shelter curing epoxy so the direct sun doesn't heat it up enough to make the underlying wood out-gas ... and you don't want part curing fast (sun) and part slow (shade).  Use David Nolan's approach ... only apply epoxy during a cooling trend.  In other words, provide shade for curing parts and apply epoxy after the peak temperature of the day. 

Brian

Title: Re: Outdoor build of GA
Post by: json on February 21, 2019, 04:14:58 PM
Perfect. Thanks Brian.
Title: Re: Outdoor build of GA
Post by: Brian.Dixon on February 21, 2019, 05:21:55 PM
Perfect. Thanks Brian.

Advice worth what ya paid for it....  ::) ;D
Title: Re: Outdoor build of GA
Post by: json on February 21, 2019, 05:43:03 PM
Ha! I think it's worth more than that. The shade bit is worth at least $3. Į\_(ツ)_/Į
Title: Re: Outdoor build of GA
Post by: Brian.Dixon on February 22, 2019, 05:44:52 AM
Ha! I think it's worth more than that. The shade bit is worth at least $3. Į\_(ツ)_/Į

 ;D :o 8) ;D
Title: Re: Outdoor build of GA
Post by: davidnolan on March 04, 2019, 10:52:57 AM
for what its worth... esp outside... get a weed burner....  there will be times you aren't sure if the wood is damp or it is damp.... and its very very easy to dry out plywood with a few quick passes of the weedburner to drive out the moisture in the wood or to dry it if it gets wet.   you wont set your boat on fire....

I use mine a lot......    say its a cold night... just a pre heat of the panel brings it up quick and drives the moisture out.       

best time to glass is mid afternoon on a warm day when its cooling off and no direct sun...
Title: Re: Outdoor build of GA
Post by: json on March 07, 2019, 11:20:01 AM
David, this doesn't run a risk of warping panels due to moisture imbalance? If it did warp panels would it even matter? I will look into a weed burner, I am sure there are a multitude of fun things I could do besides this task with it. :)
Title: Re: Outdoor build of GA
Post by: json on March 07, 2019, 11:24:58 AM
$20 at harbor freight sold! Maybe this will save me on the cost of buying roundup too!
Title: Re: Outdoor build of GA
Post by: davidnolan on March 07, 2019, 01:56:22 PM
absolutely no warping of panels.....      Now if you throw a panel outside on the ground in warm weather,  it will warp as the sun heats the top and moisture from the ground enters the bottom and it curves upwards....

I use mine a LOT.   Even things like early morning dew that might be on your wood.... bamm   its gone....
Title: Re: Outdoor build of GA
Post by: Brian.Dixon on March 07, 2019, 02:37:00 PM
Weed burners are fun to have anyway ... even if just burning weeds!  ;D
Title: Re: Outdoor build of GA
Post by: json on April 03, 2019, 04:34:14 PM
I haven't really posted much about my build (pics or otherwise), but what better time to start than now? Today I took some time out of my work day to epoxy stitch the fairbody. The only thing I have left to work on really until the Kodiak addendum is posted is the fairbody seam, so hopefully that isn't far out (rumor has it this weekend? :) :) :) ).

Quick question, as you can see in the third picture here, some of my panels got wet during the last rain. I don't think it's going to be a problem, but am hoping someone can weigh in with assurances that the panels aren't wrecked since they got pretty wet. I think they have dried out and seem structurally sound but I am worried that maybe they could have water ingress inside the panel that doesn't manifest until later when the panel is sealed in epoxy and the moisture rots the panels. Maybe I am just paranoid.

Title: Re: Outdoor build of GA
Post by: Todd j on April 03, 2019, 06:25:13 PM
If you can find what the BS1088 spec for marine plywood and read it may make you feel better.   It might be some reassurance.
Title: Re: Outdoor build of GA
Post by: json on April 03, 2019, 06:31:18 PM
Good call Todd. I am gonna look that up.
Title: Re: Outdoor build of GA
Post by: Brian.Dixon on April 03, 2019, 07:22:22 PM

Yeah ... water not the best additive to the boat project!  Let the wood dry thoroughly and give it a light sanding before adding glass and epoxy.  Water raises the grain a tad.  No worries on the glass and epoxy - and your wood is good stuff and won't care too much either, but still good to avoid water.  Speaking of glass, the sooner you get the top face (towards rain) of the bottom panel assembly glassed the better.  Seeing wet epoxy/glass feels better than seeing wet wood.  (BTW, it has happened to me too .... I even had some mildew growing on the wood ... chlorox, dry thoroughly, sand, and epoxy/glass .... nobody's the wiser :) )

Brian

Title: Re: Outdoor build of GA
Post by: json on April 04, 2019, 08:05:17 AM
Ya, it's cheap insurance to buy new tarps that you know don't have holes in them, lesson learned. :) They are pretty dry, I will give them a good once over with the sander and work on getting the assembly coated in epoxy at the very least.
Title: Re: Outdoor build of GA
Post by: Rbob on April 04, 2019, 11:03:26 AM
Json,

Not sure if you put box tape on the 2x4's but if not I would pull them and run box tape on the bottom and sides, resin will run underneath and...  I found this out  haha.

May I suggest:

If you have slow hardener I would use it for the fillets, apply the whole fillet and roll your dry tape right onto the fillet before it hardens. You can use a gloved hand to lightly press it down.  It will start to soak up resin. then use a roller to apply more epoxy to the cloth as needed, finish off with shower squeegee to move excess resin onto the hull.

Rbob




Title: Re: Outdoor build of GA
Post by: json on April 04, 2019, 11:50:50 AM
Oh, great point. Yes, I will put some box tape on them for sure, thanks for pointing that out. I just received 15 gallons from ebond with 5 gallons of slow hardener, so I will use that for doing the seam work. Thanks for the advice Rbob!
Title: Re: Outdoor build of GA
Post by: Brian.Dixon on April 04, 2019, 12:06:33 PM
Wow ... I've never heard of 'box tape'!  We use 'masking tape'... not the more expensive 'packing tape' :D

Brian

Title: Re: Outdoor build of GA
Post by: json on April 04, 2019, 12:30:21 PM
Quick google search says "Resins like polyester, vinylester and epoxy will not stick to polypropylene which means that once cured the laminating pattern, mould or part can easily be removed from the board.", I suppose that if masking tape did stick it would be easy enough to scrape off, but good to know that box tape would not stick (in my previous life working as a mover I was exposed to way too much box tape).
Title: Re: Outdoor build of GA
Post by: Brian.Dixon on April 04, 2019, 03:10:39 PM
I looked it up.  Box tape is what we call 'clear packing tape' around here.  I think the glue that's on the tape is what the epoxy runs into when it drips through a seam.  Masking tape peels right off after curing.  Probably the same glue as the clear packing tape.  We also just call it 'packing tape', and if we mean the kind that has the fiberglass in it, then it's either "fiberglass packing tape" or "strapping tape".  What part of the country are you in?  Do you say pancakes, hotcakes, or griddle cakes?  :D

Brian

Title: Re: Outdoor build of GA
Post by: json on April 04, 2019, 04:45:54 PM
Ha! I am in southern California, we call them pancakes around these parts. :) I grew up near Gresham OR, and everyone in those parts calls fizzy sugar drinks 'pop'. When I first moved to california everyone made fun of me constantly for calling it 'pop'. I now know the error of my ways, it's soda.
Title: Re: Outdoor build of GA
Post by: Brian.Dixon on April 05, 2019, 07:09:01 AM
Ha! I am in southern California, we call them pancakes around these parts. :) I grew up near Gresham OR, and everyone in those parts calls fizzy sugar drinks 'pop'. When I first moved to california everyone made fun of me constantly for calling it 'pop'. I now know the error of my ways, it's soda.

Same here ... Pacific Northwest.  It's pancakes.  But when I grew up, we called all soft drinks 'coke'.  You could walk into your local Arctic Circle and tell the guy you wanted a large coke.  He'd say "What kind?" .... then you tell him ... "Orange".  Now it seems that 'soda' is the word to use, and if you say 'coke', they'll say, "Sorry ... only got Pepsi".  :D

Brian

Title: Re: Outdoor build of GA
Post by: Jim_Hbar on April 05, 2019, 10:06:45 AM
Pop, pancakes, packing tape --- I suspect are all Canadian influences.
But I've never heard a 'Mericun say rooooof (not ruf), or call the things we put on our heads in the winter by their correct name - a "Toque". :) :) :) :)
Title: Re: Outdoor build of GA
Post by: Brian.Dixon on April 05, 2019, 03:18:07 PM

Gawd Bless 'Merkah, Fords'n Shivvies!  Gotta love bein' deplorable....

bd

Title: Re: Outdoor build of GA Kodiak, Orange, CA
Post by: json on April 24, 2019, 01:47:47 PM
I built the Kodiak chines and installed them on my bottom assembly, I guess I am committed at this point so a new title is in order. I have also changed to building a curved transom since I need to redo that as well, so I have some 12mm aquatek glued up for that. I have to say that one of my favorite parts of this build so far is using trigonometry to find lengths or angles that I need (for instance I didn't have a protractor so I was using the Pythagorean theorem to cut angles when I needed a reference). It's good to finally use some of that stuff I spent so many hours learning once upon a time. I assume there is probably going to be a lot of that when I do the lofting of the transom.

Title: Re: Outdoor build of GA Kodiak, Orange, CA
Post by: Todd j on April 24, 2019, 03:11:58 PM
Looks like a lot of sawdust on the floor!  How are the kodiak chine flats
Title: Re: Outdoor build of GA Kodiak, Orange, CA
Post by: json on April 24, 2019, 03:20:06 PM
Ha! Ya, I need to sweep that up, I am getting tired of walking on it. :) They are pretty wide, the bottom assembly is pretty large with them on it. I am really excited to see how wide this hull is fully assembled, there is a long way to go before that happens though.
Title: Re: Outdoor build of GA Kodiak, Orange, CA
Post by: Brian.Dixon on April 24, 2019, 03:31:36 PM
It's funny, because to me, the picture of the wider chine flats looks a lot like the normal width ... Maybe I should've made them a yard wide :D :D ?

bd


Title: Re: Outdoor build of GA Kodiak, Orange, CA
Post by: json on April 24, 2019, 03:40:26 PM
I was wondering if the hull would look odd with the bigger chines, but I think it will probably look just fine. They are almost double the width though. A yard wide might be pushing it a bit. :)
Title: Re: Outdoor build of GA Kodiak, Orange, CA
Post by: Todd j on April 24, 2019, 06:37:56 PM
It's funny, because to me, the picture of the wider chine flats looks a lot like the normal width ... Maybe I should've made them a yard wide :D :D ?

bd

They look a foot wide In that perspective.  I guessed 1 1/2Ē-2Ē wider?   Judging y the amount hanging over the mold
Title: Re: Outdoor build of GA Kodiak, Orange, CA
Post by: Djeffrey on April 24, 2019, 07:00:17 PM
Json, I am also building a curved transom. Did you use 4 sheets of 1/2? How easy did it bend?
Title: Re: Outdoor build of GA Kodiak, Orange, CA
Post by: json on April 25, 2019, 08:39:32 AM
It's funny, because to me, the picture of the wider chine flats looks a lot like the normal width ... Maybe I should've made them a yard wide :D :D ?

bd

They look a foot wide In that perspective.  I guessed 1 1/2Ē-2Ē wider?   Judging y the amount hanging over the mold

Ya, they are probably 2 inches wider than the other ones I built, I think they are 7 wide at the widest spot.

Json, I am also building a curved transom. Did you use 4 sheets of 1/2? How easy did it bend?

You are correct Dennis, it's 4 sheets of 1/2" ply, although really just 2 sheets cut in two. I researched a bit on the minimum bending radius for different thicknesses of plywood and used that as my guide, and I think I ended up settling on 12'. The material was pretty easy to bend, getting it glued and bent and lined up in place was another story. :)
Title: Re: Outdoor build of GA Kodiak, Orange, CA
Post by: Rbob on April 25, 2019, 10:36:20 AM
I love the look of a curved transom! 
Title: Re: Outdoor build of GA Kodiak, Orange, CA
Post by: Brian.Dixon on April 25, 2019, 01:31:03 PM
I love the look of a curved transom!

It helps to prevent broaching in a following sea too.

Brian

Title: Re: Outdoor build of GA Kodiak, Orange, CA
Post by: json on April 26, 2019, 02:23:22 PM
I cut the transom out today, and proved once again that I can't cut an accurate angle with a jigsaw to save my life, compounded by curved lines that are a result of a curved transom, and the fit is 'ok'. I am actually pretty happy how close I came, I was kind of thinking I was going to screw up somewhere and have to start all over. Question I have when thinking about the lamination I did, should I be worried if I didn't put microfibers in the glue? My gut says don't sweat it, if it wants to delaminate it's going to only be able to do so around the edges and probably won't do so since it will be hugged tight by glass. Maybe I will throw some biaxial over the outside corners to reinforce them a bit. Idk, opinions welcome about that.

Title: Re: Outdoor build of GA Kodiak, Orange, CA
Post by: Brian.Dixon on April 26, 2019, 02:41:03 PM

I never put milled glass into laminating mixes.  It's not necessary.  In fact, since it flows the best, the only thing I ever use is straight silica ... no wood flour or other additives.  It's really inconsequential regardless.  When laminating, you are putting together a huge surface area of glue ... it's not going to come apart.  If your wood is soaked in water and not encapsulated with epoxy (rule #1  .. do it right!), then I have seen water expand wood to the point of failure.  That was on a splash-rail, and why in the manual, I suggest a long silicon bronze screw through splash rails and rubrails into the stem.  Both can get banged up on docks and what not, and if not repaired, can expose wood to water.  In any case, you won't have any issues.  I recommend milled glass fibers in fillets where stress and 'impact' type loads can occur.  In particular, that would be the fillets on the bow and on the transom corners.  The milled glass fiber adds tensile strength to the epoxy and prevents cracking if a bad impact occurs (airborne plunges into big swells, hitting large heavy floating objects or deadheads, driving over centerline curbs in the road at speed etc).

Brian

Title: Re: Outdoor build of GA Kodiak, Orange, CA
Post by: json on April 26, 2019, 03:21:21 PM
Ah, ok, that makes sense. The instructions for gluing the LVL to the transom specify utilizing fibers, but there is not as much surface area for that joint so it makes more sense why it would need to be higher strength. Good to know about just making sure there is adequate coverage and waterproofing.
Title: Re: Outdoor build of GA Kodiak, Orange, CA
Post by: Brian.Dixon on April 26, 2019, 03:50:13 PM
Ah, ok, that makes sense. The instructions for gluing the LVL to the transom specify utilizing fibers, but there is not as much surface area for that joint so it makes more sense why it would need to be higher strength. Good to know about just making sure there is adequate coverage and waterproofing.

All good!  I believe in over-strong ... the Great Alaskan is overly strong on purpose :D

Brian

Title: Re: Outdoor build of GA Kodiak, Orange, CA
Post by: Djeffrey on April 27, 2019, 10:58:03 AM
Json, how much bend did you put in your transom. I was thinking 10-12 inches?
Title: Re: Outdoor build of GA Kodiak, Orange, CA
Post by: json on April 27, 2019, 12:14:30 PM
Ya, it was approximately 10 inches. I had about an inch or 2 on the edge of a 2x12 that I cut the mold out of. It could have been a bit sharper of a bend I think but that seemed to work well.
Title: Re: Outdoor build of GA Kodiak, Orange, CA
Post by: json on May 10, 2019, 02:35:52 PM
I got the fairbody flipped today, boy, that thing is not light. My brother came down and helped me do it. I thought we would just be able to pick it up and flip it over, but it took a bit of planning to get it done. Whatever, no harm no foul. Next up I am working on a couple of wood gantry cranes to manage the fairbody as I install the shelves, stem, stringers, and transom. Hopefully that's the last time I need help until the next flip. It's always a pain to coordinate with people to get things done, and of course it always starts raining right when you get the required help in place. Either way, onward and upward.
Title: Re: Outdoor build of GA Kodiak, Orange, CA
Post by: json on May 10, 2019, 02:40:46 PM
pics
Title: Re: Outdoor build of GA Kodiak, Orange, CA
Post by: Brian.Dixon on May 10, 2019, 05:51:49 PM
Yeah ... it's about as heavy as you'd want to handle, but that said, other boats this size have you handling more complex and heavier parts yet.  The GA is able to be built with very little help.  Don't feel bad about drilling holes and using blocks fit to the bottom and/or through-bolts and what not.  Same goes with those cross pieces for support ... do what's strongest (I always trust bolts more than clamps or even big screws).  It's not hard to patch it up after the bottom's on those stringers/stem/transom ... :)

Looking great and you're going fast!

Brian

Title: Re: Outdoor build of GA Kodiak, Orange, CA
Post by: json on May 31, 2019, 08:30:18 PM
So I ran into a little hiccup and I am not sure how far I need to backpedal here, hopefully people can weigh in with some advice. When I made the shelves, I didn't have a ton of space so I made them in front half/back half assemblies, but with a butt-joint for front/back to be assembled when installing on the shelf molds. Sounds easy enough right? So my first mistake, when putting them on there was a 2" gap on the bow joint when they appeared fair from the sides. Instead of moving the molds to keep the fairness, I tried to fit them the best I could to the molds and I kinked one (not sure what I was thinking) and then glued them and faired that side to a fair curve. All seemed right, sight test looked good, sheer looked fair. The problem festering was that the center point of the bow joint of the shelves is 1" off to the side. So now, I glued up the stem, was fitting it, was like 'hmmm, the stringers don't quite fit right to the bow', then went with a plumb bob and measured offsets, the bottom is sitting about 1" off (so horizontal only distance from the outside of the shelf to the outside of the chine is like 2" off of the other side). I am not entirely sure what to do here other than be irritated at myself that I didn't think if there is a kink there is something else going on that needs attention. To be somewhat less down on myself, the bottom assembly was sitting in the way when I was doing all of this so getting a centerline was difficult at best, but either way I have a situation where I need to either unglue the stem, cut the shelves in half, then figure out how far off they actually are and fix them, or just continue on with the bottom 1" to the right and center it the best I can and chalk that little booboo up to me just being in a hurry or not thinking.

My gut is telling me to back up and fix the shelves, maybe cut a full-size template and check the shelves currently, then if they are off cut them apart with a coping saw and reglue them and fair them to each other, then glue them together and then maybe cut some grooves in the previously glued part of the stem and shelves to help them adhere better and move forward. Advice would be greatly appreciated. :)

Thanks,

Jason

Title: Re: Outdoor build of GA Kodiak, Orange, CA
Post by: Brian.Dixon on June 01, 2019, 06:48:32 AM
No problem!

The good news is that in spite of it all, you are able to get plumb and center lines that show the error, and of course, there is always a way to fish anything on these boats.  You can disconnect the stem from the shelves by laying a hand saw flat on the shelves at the bow (if the stem is already glued to the shelves) and saw through to release the stem.  Same with the bow end of the shelves ... you can saw through the joint to disconnect them from each other.  Now ... are they glued in at the transom?  It's a little harder to saw them loose back there, but it can be done.  On the inner edge of the shelves, you can drill a series of holes along the line to release it there, and use a hand saw to saw inward top and bottom.

Once shelves are loose again, you can reposition them or even replace them.  I suspect that there's no reason for replacement, but if you want to cut and re-attach fore and aft sections or whatever, you can of course.  You can re-scarf sections together using a diagonal cut (like the A-B line in the drawings) if you need to.  Keep in mind that filling gaps with epoxy is A-OK, even if they're on the larger side.  Also, when the side panels wrap around the boat, they naturally curve over and fair imperfections in the shape of the shelves ... let epoxy fill the low spots.  Finally, if your stem ends up being off by an inch plus or minus, you will NOT be able to notice it in the final boat and it'll make no difference in performance.  Carry on!  Most of all ... please post pix showing the challenges that you ran into and how you went about fixing them.  Don't be bummed.... just fix it and keep on trucking!  It's going to be an awesome boat and you've got the very first KODIAK in construction and hopefully will be the first to launch one!

Brian

Title: Re: Outdoor build of GA Kodiak, Orange, CA
Post by: json on June 01, 2019, 02:14:11 PM
The first attached is what the sides would look like with the error, but I went ahead and cut the bow stem off this morning. :) I am going to try to fix it by squaring the bottom assembly and stringers back to the jig and then trying to fit the bow stem to the shelves and the bottom. I also bought a roll of craft paper so I am going to make a full length lofting of a shelf and then check how close both sides are, and then depending on what that shows I may or may not take them apart and try to fix them. The second attached shows the kink on the starboard shelf. I will take pictures of my journey, and post them when I have more stuff to show. Right now it's hard to see in pictures stuff being off, but it is when I measure. Now that the bottom is sitting on the stringers on the horses it's a lot easier to get in there and make sure things are equidistant from the origin. Hopefully this is just a minor bump in the road and I can get back on track shortly.

Title: Re: Outdoor build of GA Kodiak, Orange, CA
Post by: Brian.Dixon on June 01, 2019, 02:30:13 PM

Hey ... stop sweating!  It doesn't look bad from here.  If it were me, I'd be tempted to use a low-angle block plane or a power hand plane and shave off the outside of the 'kink' area until it's fair and matches your butcher paper lofting close enough.  It is NOT an exact science, and you should feel satisfied with fair curves, however you got them and whether or not they match the original design down to gnat's a** or not.  After planing down the outside until fair, then just use thickened epoxy on the inner edge to build the inside 'kink' into a fair curve.  You can always wrap the inner fill with some 6-oz glass or so just to give it more tensile strength.  Glass wrapped epoxy fill is stronger than the original wood would've been - no problem.  Keep these ideas in mind as you do your checking too.... might save you some work and time.

Brian

Title: Re: Outdoor build of GA Kodiak, Orange, CA
Post by: json on June 05, 2019, 12:31:34 PM
A gnats a I did not match, but after some adjusting I did get something I am happy with. I disconnected the stem and moved the shelves around slightly, then put the bottom assembly in place and remeasured, getting the offset much smaller (maybe 1/2 inch between sides, definitely within the acceptable margin of error for me). The stem is pretty close to vertical, and now everything seems to fit together much better, at least doing measurements from chine to shelf. So, onward we go. I got the stem glued back in place, and got the stringers and transom installed, hoping to install the bottom assembly in the next day or 2. Here are some pics of the transom being installed, no further pics of my boo-boo because it wasn't really photogenic. :)
Title: Re: Outdoor build of GA Kodiak, Orange, CA
Post by: Brian.Dixon on June 05, 2019, 02:50:10 PM

Good on ya.. I was wondering how things were going.  Glad to hear that things are on track.  Did you end up reconnecting fore/aft sections of the shelves, or did you tweak them as they are (or were?)?   The transom's looking awesome!

Brian

Title: Re: Outdoor build of GA Kodiak, Orange, CA
Post by: json on June 05, 2019, 04:12:22 PM

Good on ya.. I was wondering how things were going.  Glad to hear that things are on track.  Did you end up reconnecting fore/aft sections of the shelves, or did you tweak them as they are (or were?)?   The transom's looking awesome!

Brian



I was able to tweak them without separating them into pieces, and just sort of aligned everything back to center, and tried to get them moved back toward the center as much as I could, then took some measurements to see how the bottom assembly looked to the shelf placement, and after much futzing around it looked pretty good port vs stbd and the bow stem was pretty close to vertical. I had previously faired the shelves with a low angle block plane, so they are fair curves, and they seem to be pretty equidistant from the centerline of the bottom assembly, so I think I am pretty good to go. Good thing this boat doesn't take furniture joints, I would have a pile of scrap at this point. I am sure by the end of this I will be a pro at hiding my mistakes, as I am making plenty of them...
Title: Re: Outdoor build of GA Kodiak, Orange, CA
Post by: Brian.Dixon on June 05, 2019, 04:37:01 PM
<snip>
Good thing this boat doesn't take furniture joints, I would have a pile of scrap at this point. I am sure by the end of this I will be a pro at hiding my mistakes, as I am making plenty of them...

Epoxy-filled joints are stronger than tight wood-to-wood joints with a thin glue layer ... My kind of joinery!  Wiggly jigsaw cuts are A-OK!

Brian

Title: Re: Outdoor build of GA Kodiak, Orange, CA
Post by: json on June 07, 2019, 04:50:16 PM
I got the bottom assembly glued on today, which took a lot longer than I thought it would. No sweat though, I am using ebond's 1289 so I took my time and got it done. Next up, 2nd bow layer.

Title: Re: Outdoor build of GA Kodiak, Orange, CA
Post by: Djeffrey on June 08, 2019, 10:49:24 AM
How did you decide to finish the back of your boat? Nice transom!
Title: Re: Outdoor build of GA Kodiak, Orange, CA
Post by: json on June 09, 2019, 04:29:01 PM
How did you decide to finish the back of your boat? Nice transom!

Thanks! I am not entirely sure yet, I am thinking I am going to maybe have a swim platform and then a second curved transom 2 feet in front of the real one. I am still sort of pondering it and probably will for a while honestly. I plan on flipping without the second one installed to make it easier to get in and out of the hull to do the interior work. How about you Djeffrey?
Title: Re: Outdoor build of GA Kodiak, Orange, CA
Post by: Djeffrey on June 09, 2019, 08:13:19 PM
Doing the same
Title: Re: Outdoor build of GA Kodiak, Orange, CA
Post by: json on June 15, 2019, 12:52:40 PM
Doing the same

Awesome, can't wait to see what you come up with!

I got the second bow layer installed. It was uneventful, with the exception that my scarfs are pretty lousy and it's going to take some fairing to whip them into shape. Par for the course though from the sounds of it. The bow feels really solid once the second layer is installed, it's pretty awesome how this hull is really starting to get pretty rigid. I wasn't sure how solid it was going to feel when it was just a floppy plywood assembly but now it is becoming apparent that this is going to be a pretty bulletproof boat.

Title: Re: Outdoor build of GA Kodiak, Orange, CA
Post by: Brian.Dixon on June 16, 2019, 10:25:40 AM

You're getting lots of work done fast and it's looking great!

And yes, this boat is OVERLY strong ... that's a good thing.  Strength does come from the sum of the parts, not just individual pieces :D

Brian

Title: Re: Outdoor build of GA Kodiak, Orange, CA
Post by: Djeffrey on July 04, 2019, 07:21:40 AM
Jason, Howís it going out there in Cali ? Much progress to report?
Title: Re: Outdoor build of GA Kodiak, Orange, CA
Post by: json on July 04, 2019, 08:58:52 AM
Jason, Howís it going out there in Cali ? Much progress to report?

Slow and steady. :) I forgot how busy summertime is, so my plan to really crush it on progress is falling through to camping and entertaining my kids. Oh well. Regardless, I got the first side installed yesterday, I ran out of time to do the stitches but probably going to find a minute to do them today. This is going to be a big boat.
Title: Re: Outdoor build of GA Kodiak, Orange, CA
Post by: Brian.Dixon on July 06, 2019, 09:43:52 AM
Looking great!  Yup .. BIG boats are BIG fun!

Good on ya for giving the kids and family some time.  Building a boat can be rough on the family life if not managed well :)

What's in the cinder block building with the red stripe?  Looks like an Action Auto or something :D  Curious... Love your tenacity and creativity in building outside.  Good thing you're in sunny California ...  8)

Brian

Title: Re: Outdoor build of GA Kodiak, Orange, CA
Post by: json on July 06, 2019, 02:21:23 PM

Looking great!  Yup .. BIT boats are BIG fun!

Good on ya for giving the kids and family some time.  Building a boat can be rough on the family life if not managed well :)

What's in the cinder block building with the red stripe?  Looks like an Action Auto or something :D  Curious... Love your tenacity and creativity in building outside.  Good thing you're in sunny California ...  8)

Brian



Ya, I am definitely very conscious about making sure I am dedicating time to the fam. I have been trying to get my kids into boat building but they may be a bit young (2 and 4). :P They have swept the shop floor up with a shop vac a couple times, now I just need to get them cracking on slinging some epoxy and I will have a valuable resource. My son is super into the whole process when he is around watching, my daughter not so much. Most of the time I spend working on it though is after they are in bed or during the day when they are in school.

The cinder block building is a mom and pop run storage unit, so that actually works out pretty well since I don't have neighbors on that side and can mind my own affairs without anyone getting up in arms about dust or whatnot. It's really a pretty perfect spot for it since I built the fence around it. The sunshine helps too, although I came back from camping a couple weeks ago to find my tarp blown off and light rain soaking the whole bottom (blah). Left the tarp off for a few days and the sun dried it all out, seems no worse for the wear. It's been a very wet year and a struggle to keep the project dry, but seems that the rain is over for the summer so now the challenge is largely trying to find time to do epoxy work that's not in the mid-afternoon sun. Always a challenge figuring out how to deal with the elements, but that's how it goes building outside.
Title: Re: Outdoor build of GA Kodiak, Orange, CA
Post by: Brian.Dixon on July 07, 2019, 06:53:38 PM

All good.  I know a guy in Alaska that built mostly outdoors ... and even got rain on fresh epoxy.  It cured with neat little dimples all over it, but other than sanding and needed a leveling coat, it didn't hurt a thing.  Warping (uncoated) wood is the worst fear.... not so much on other stuff (assuming you aren't going to store it unprotected from UV for a year or something.)

Brian

Title: Re: Outdoor build of GA Kodiak, Orange, CA
Post by: json on July 12, 2019, 05:28:24 PM
I got the final side panel installed last night, so hey, it's a boat! Pretty cool to see this all come together I must say. My on-the-boat scarfs might have been the best ones I have ever done, not sure how putting wood vertical and hard to manage makes me better at scarfing but hey, I'll take it. I also got to try out that nifty little trick with the roll pin. Boy, that sure beats drilling a dozen holes around a broken screw and fishing for it.

I am tempted to do a bottom coat with titanium dioxide just to protect the boat from the heat from sitting upside down under the sun. Or possibly even make that the bottom coat. It's covered by a tarp but it would be nice if I could leave it uncovered while I focus on it so I don't need to keep covering it all the time. As I think about it, as much as I kind of want a graphite bottom for the looks and ease of maintaining it I think sitting upside down outside might be damaging from the heat it would absorb in the so cal summer sun until I was ready to flip it.

 Up next is a week of vacation with the family and then a month off work to be a boat builder full time. That's the plan anyways... :P
Title: Re: Outdoor build of GA Kodiak, Orange, CA
Post by: Todd j on July 13, 2019, 07:51:08 AM
I decided to go pour unthickened epoxy right on the bottom.  Squeegee it all over the boat.  Sides too.  Then glass and treat the hull. Kick the whole thing outside for awhile and build a couple gantry cranes. Then resume the build again inside.  I wonder if just epoxy coating the bottom and leaving it untended for the duration of the summer would accomplish the same thing if itís rained upon.
Title: Re: Outdoor build of GA Kodiak, Orange, CA
Post by: json on July 13, 2019, 11:30:42 AM
I decided to go pour unthickened epoxy right on the bottom.  Squeegee it all over the boat.  Sides too.  Then glass and treat the hull. Kick the whole thing outside for awhile and build a couple gantry cranes. Then resume the build again inside.  I wonder if just epoxy coating the bottom and leaving it untended for the duration of the summer would accomplish the same thing if itís rained upon.

I would feel a lot better about my project sitting outside if it was coated. However I can see from chunks of epoxy that have been sitting in the sun that they start to get pretty weathered pretty fast in direct sunlight. Interesting that you evicted your hull to build some cranes. :) Is that for the flip? I think if I was doing a gantry in the shop I would just rope the beam to the rafters and then build up the feet right in place. Probably easier without a giant hull in the way though.
Title: Re: Outdoor build of GA Kodiak, Orange, CA
Post by: Todd j on July 13, 2019, 09:14:01 PM
Itís not cast iron yet.  Yes it would be for the flip. I might get a pile of 6x6x1/2  Ibeam. Itís way overkill,  it itís free to me.... maybe. This stuff is 25# per foot and my shop is 20 feet wide.  I donít trust the structure to hold the the beam.  If I did I would use it to flip the hull.  If your Interested read my ďa house for a GA ď thread here.  It chronicles my dogshit to honey boat shed Reno/build.   
Title: Re: Outdoor build of GA Kodiak, Orange, CA
Post by: json on July 16, 2019, 08:50:39 AM
Itís not cast iron yet.  Yes it would be for the flip. I might get a pile of 6x6x1/2  Ibeam. Itís way overkill,  it itís free to me.... maybe. This stuff is 25# per foot and my shop is 20 feet wide.  I donít trust the structure to hold the the beam.  If I did I would use it to flip the hull.  If your Interested read my ďa house for a GA ď thread here.  It chronicles my dogshit to honey boat shed Reno/build.   

Right, ya, I read that towards the end of when you were doing it. Now that I remember you also have those canted beams too, so ya, attaching a 500lb beam to those guys doesn't sound very safe haha. I was going to use my cranes that I built to do my flip but then realized that my hull won't fit under them on it's side. So 10 dudes + pizza and beer sounds like it's going to be the way for me.
Title: Re: Outdoor build of GA Kodiak, Orange, CA
Post by: json on July 23, 2019, 07:24:57 PM
Brian, quick question about fairing the bottom and chine Seam with the transom (pre-glass). Should I try my best to keep that edge as sharp as possible? I was reading somewhere (maybe on fishyfish) that if you donít have a sharp exit of your bottom assembly you will lose lift and possibly not be able to get on plane. I doubt such an extreme scenario would happen from rounding the edge some but what should I be aiming for for a radius between the aft end of the bottom and chines to the transom?
Title: Re: Outdoor build of GA Kodiak, Orange, CA
Post by: Todd j on July 23, 2019, 08:31:14 PM
There was a ton of discussion on this subject not long ago on fishy fish.  From what I remember.  Radius the transom for glass and make the edge sharp.  Sounds like it makes a big difference. 
Title: Re: Outdoor build of GA Kodiak, Orange, CA
Post by: json on July 24, 2019, 09:57:17 AM
Cool cool... thx Todd.
Title: Re: Outdoor build of GA Kodiak, Orange, CA
Post by: Brian.Dixon on July 24, 2019, 10:20:07 AM

If you want a sharp stern transition (bottom to transom corner), you'd do it last.  Radius as necessary for the glass to make the bend OK, scrape and fair all overlapped glass in prep for final epoxy coats.  THEN you can form a sharper edge with thickened epoxy ... it'll take a few passes and you'll want to use a metal ruler or other straight edge to verify that the new 'edge' prescribes a straight run off the bottom of the boat.  Fill defects, repeat.  The corner doesn't need to be razor sharp .. a small radius is fine.  Some think it improves efficiency ... and it may when on smooth water (lake or similar), but offshore it won't make a measurable difference.  Some say it'll help the boat get on plane ... but unless you've hugely rounded that corner (!!), it won't help on a Great Alaskan .. the GA only raises it's bow by about 4 degrees and then it lifts onto plane like an elevator ... and the bow-up trim reduces once on plane ... finally reducing to just over 2 degrees when at speeds around 40 knots and faster.

Bottom line: Sharpen up the corner if it makes you feel better, but in a practical world, this would be more an a 'polishing the apple' exercise than anything.  If it were me and mid-winter, waiting for Spring, then maybe I'd do it.  But if the calendar is zooming by and another boating season approaches then I'd skip it and go boating ... and decide later on if I felt it was still worth it to me or not (I suspect not).  Oh .. one other thing.  The sharper edge may allow the boat to go a couple knots faster, say, having top speed of 42-43 knots instead of 40 knots.  Previous experience with one other GA (slightly stern heavy) says the boat picks up a slight porpoising above 40-42 knots or so ... that's FAST!  The sharp edge may let you go a little faster without any instabilities showing up.

Brian
Title: Re: Outdoor build of GA Kodiak, Orange, CA
Post by: Jim_Hbar on July 24, 2019, 11:18:38 AM
My 2 cents worth.

I suspect that once the hull has passed the speed where the flow separates cleanly at the stern and the chines, the stern/transom radius has virtually zero effect - all other things being equal.  However, the sharper the edge, the slower the speed possible before the boundary layer turns the corner and re-attaches to the stern, and the hull stops planing.

But the chines (at the rear of the boat) need to be equally as "sharp" as the stern.  Sharpening the stern won't be as effective if the water climbs the sides and attaches to the sides of the hull.

The lighter the bottom loading, the more effective the sharpening will be.

Title: Re: Outdoor build of GA Kodiak, Orange, CA
Post by: json on July 24, 2019, 02:54:11 PM
Interesting, ok, thanks guys. I am not going to worry about it right now then. Going to focus on getting the glass to follow the edge and lay flat.
Title: Re: Outdoor build of GA Kodiak, Orange, CA
Post by: Brian.Dixon on July 25, 2019, 07:41:01 AM

Good point on the chines.  Curves that cause the water to want to 'climb up' cause an equal and opposite reaction .. the hull is slightly pulled down.  That's a loss in efficiency.  But ... it's very small on a boat this size and undetectable in normal use.  I'd consider doing it mostly because it would make me feel more like I did the very best job I could in building the boat.  Race boats that need to eek out that list .5 mph is where you usually see these 'sharp edge' efforts being used.

bd

Title: Re: Outdoor build of GA Kodiak, Orange, CA
Post by: json on July 31, 2019, 09:04:34 AM
Sand fill sand sand fill sand sand glass fill sand... I was working on taping the chines yesterday and was breaking into a new roll of 10oz that I had bought online (maybe on ebay, can't remember). Anyways, as soon as I opened it I knew something was off. It was stiff as if if had already been wet out with resin (although it hadn't been). I went ahead and rolled up 3 meters of it and cut some tape out of it for the chines, and got busy doing a wet on wet biax+10oz layup. About 2 feet into it I had to abandon the 10oz because it wouldn't wet out or lay flat on the seams. Has anyone run into fabric like this? Is it just cheap crappy fabric or is there some other underlying problem that it was subject to (age, moisture, ??)?

I have a deadline to flip by August 30 (or one of my limited helpers won't be available for the next 2 months), so hoping to put it in overdrive and get there. Back to sand sand fill sand glass fill sand...
Title: Re: Outdoor build of GA Kodiak, Orange, CA
Post by: Brian.Dixon on July 31, 2019, 11:09:57 AM

Do you have some other 10-oz cloth to compare to?  There is a type of cloth called "finishing cloth" that has finer yarn and a tight weave .... it's designed to lay flat and have a smooth texture that is easy to finish to a smooth surface (that means "might be done after just one fill coat").  What I do *NOT* like about finishing cloth is that it won't follow a bend (like on a seam) very well and if you dare wrinkle it, the wrinkly shows through the finish later ... tough to get flat and must be faired out with a fairing mix.  Now, if you're just glassing a large flat surface such as the decks in the boat, or the interior surface of hull panels, before installation, then the stuff works fine.  You might save it for that kind of work, but normal woven fiberglass will be a lot nicer to work with on those hard corners. 

Now ... since you likely have biax curing away right now and didn't get to use woven glass on top of it, wet on wet, you likely will have hard ridges (the knitting that holds the two layers of glass together in the biax) to fair in.  The quickest way to get rid of the knitting on biax is to scrape it off with a good (Sandvik or similar) carbide scraper ... the knitting is not structural.  Scrape it off, add a fill coat, then put your next layer of glass right on it.

Brian

PS: If you lose the 2 months this Fall, choose to be OK with that ... something about trying to get in a hurry invokes Murphy's Law and mucho paino.... relax and give the boat your best, and be OK with losing a couple of months or go find another handy helper to help you turn over the hull (or be creative with chain hoists as many others have done).

Title: Re: Outdoor build of GA Kodiak, Orange, CA
Post by: davidnolan on July 31, 2019, 11:16:38 AM
Going to follow this more closely.  My buddy with a 28 Novi is going to pull the twin 200 Suzis off of it and wants a 30 ft by 9.5 Kodiak next spring.         Nice pics.    Dave Nolan
Title: Re: Outdoor build of GA Kodiak, Orange, CA
Post by: json on July 31, 2019, 11:23:46 AM

Do you have some other 10-oz cloth to compare to?  There is a type of cloth called "finishing cloth" that has finer yarn and a tight weave .... it's designed to lay flat and have a smooth texture that is easy to finish to a smooth surface (that means "might be done after just one fill coat").  What I do *NOT* like about finishing cloth is that it won't follow a bend (like on a seam) very well and if you dare wrinkle it, the wrinkly shows through the finish later ... tough to get flat and must be faired out with a fairing mix.  Now, if you're just glassing a large flat surface such as the decks in the boat, or the interior surface of hull panels, before installation, then the stuff works fine.  You might save it for that kind of work, but normal woven fiberglass will be a lot nicer to work with on those hard corners. 

Now ... since you likely have biax curing away right now and didn't get to use woven glass on top of it, wet on wet, you likely will have hard ridges (the knitting that holds the two layers of glass together in the biax) to fair in.  The quickest way to get rid of the knitting on biax is to scrape it off with a good (Sandvik or similar) carbide scraper ... the knitting is not structural.  Scrape it off, add a fill coat, then put your next layer of glass right on it.

Brian

PS: If you lose the 2 months this Fall, choose to be OK with that ... something about trying to get in a hurry invokes Murphy's Law and mucho paino.... relax and give the boat your best, and be OK with losing a couple of months or go find another handy helper to help you turn over the hull (or be creative with chain hoists as many others have done).



I went and posted a chargeback for it this morning, it was billed as #7500 style, and is very rigid vs some other #7500 I have laying around. The weave looks the same (from what I saw yesterday), it's just weirdly stiff and plasticky.

That's a good point about Murphy's law. I really want to launch on my 40th birthday (next May) but it's probably a good idea to put workmanship first and make sure this is a safe vessel for my family and others to be riding in. :P Point well received. 
Title: Re: Outdoor build of GA Kodiak, Orange, CA
Post by: Brian.Dixon on July 31, 2019, 01:57:43 PM
That's odd about the glass.  It's probably been treated with a wetting agent designed for a particular type of resin ... and not the standard product and/or treatment.

You can launch by then, no problem.  Just bring oars....  :o ;D

Brian

Title: Re: Outdoor build of GA Kodiak, Orange, CA
Post by: Todd j on July 31, 2019, 03:20:30 PM
Fiberglasssupply.com look on the net or call.  I often get stuff the next day.  Been  great to deal with so far.  I talk to Rich.
Title: Re: Outdoor build of GA Kodiak, Orange, CA
Post by: Brian.Dixon on July 31, 2019, 06:00:41 PM
Fiberglasssupply.com look on the net or call.  I often get stuff the next day.  Been  great to deal with so far.  I talk to Rich.

Ditto on Fiberglass Supply ... http://www.fiberglassSupply.com .  They're my go-to company for glass and fillers.  They're in the Seattle area.

Brian

Title: Re: Outdoor build of GA Kodiak, Orange, CA
Post by: json on August 01, 2019, 09:36:03 AM
Cool, I will check them out. There is a composites shop in newport beach called revchem that has a ton of stuff that's about 1/2 hour away depending on traffic, it's easier to order online but sometimes I will throw my kid in the car for the carpool lane and take a trip down there to just get the stuff in hand. After that glass snaffoo I am definitely interested in finding an online resource that's trustworthy.
Title: Re: Outdoor build of GA Kodiak, Orange, CA
Post by: davidnolan on August 01, 2019, 09:59:19 AM
Json whats the LOA going to be?

DO you use a carbide scraper on green glass?    I hope the answer is yes.  I'm assuming you are.

Dave

looks great!!
Title: Re: Outdoor build of GA Kodiak, Orange, CA
Post by: json on August 01, 2019, 10:18:57 AM
Json whats the LOA going to be?

DO you use a carbide scraper on green glass?    I hope the answer is yes.  I'm assuming you are.

Dave

looks great!!

Thanks Dave! LOA for the hull is currently a hair over 29', I made components for 28' but with the curvy transom I was able to maximize bottom panel and stringer length to get to 29'. Definitely yes on the scraper, makes the glass overlay or fairing much easier when there aren't wild strands sticking up all over the place.

-- Jason
Title: Re: Outdoor build of GA Kodiak, Orange, CA
Post by: json on August 14, 2019, 02:58:50 PM
I finished all the exterior seams on the boat today, and was able to glass the starboard side last night. Making progress, little by little. I didn't get to do the month of full time boat building that I had hoped for (life gets in the way of the best laid plans) but I did get to focus on it quite a bit more, so I am happy with the progress I have been able to make. I do have a fairly large hump on the starboard side where the second bow layer scarf joint is, I have sanded a lot of it down but it's still there somewhat. I might just say good enough is good enough and move on, as I am not sure how much material I am going to have to remove to get it down far enough.

Title: Re: Outdoor build of GA Kodiak, Orange, CA
Post by: First Draft on August 15, 2019, 12:32:47 PM
Fill in on either side of the hump and then sand and blend it in.  Kinda like doing a butt-joint in drywall.
Title: Re: Outdoor build of GA Kodiak, Orange, CA
Post by: Djeffrey on August 16, 2019, 07:25:24 AM
I agree fill in the low side and donít sand the wood down any more. I had a little hump in that area as well. Filled it with micro balloons.
Title: Re: Outdoor build of GA Kodiak, Orange, CA
Post by: json on August 16, 2019, 08:51:06 AM
Ok, I will keep trying to fill around it. It's a pointy peak, so material removal seems like it's the way to achieve the right shape... I will keep on adding on both sides tho and hopefully I can come up with something that looks fair before too long.
Title: Re: Outdoor build of GA Kodiak, Orange, CA
Post by: Jim_Hbar on August 16, 2019, 12:04:25 PM
Being a bit of a "Devil's Advocate" here.  Some additional points to ponder.

Is the "hump" due to excess epoxy between the layers? or a void? 
If it is a void, then I see some "Epoxy Injection" in your near future.

IMO - IF you haven't glassed that area yet, and IF it is due to excess filler between layers, I would knock the wood down to get it to "grade", then continue fairing and glassing.  But you don't want to make this area of the hull any thinner than any other - just knock off the excess.  A straight edge (or a curved batten) will be your friend.

If you have your glass on already, you are stuck with fairing.  The glass layers provide the major component of the strength and stiffness to the panel, and you need to preserve their integrity, and not sand into them.

That area is approximately where the water surface (and debris) will impact the hull when planing at speed - I'm not sure a pile of weak filler between the wood and the glass is a good idea in that area.

When are you ever going to see it, after the hull is flipped?

David Nolan over on FishyFish swears by an 80 grit flap wheel on an angle grinder for finish sanding...............  Just be careful!!

Brian should be along shortly, and set us all straight
Title: Re: Outdoor build of GA Kodiak, Orange, CA
Post by: json on August 16, 2019, 12:22:12 PM
Being a bit of a "Devil's Advocate" here.  Some additional points to ponder.

Is the "hump" due to excess epoxy between the layers? or a void? 
If it is a void, then I see some "Epoxy Injection" in your near future.

IMO - IF you haven't glassed that area yet, and IF it is due to excess filler between layers, I would knock the wood down to get it to "grade", then continue fairing and glassing.  But you don't want to make this area of the hull any thinner than any other - just knock off the excess.  A straight edge (or a curved batten) will be your friend.

If you have your glass on already, you are stuck with fairing.  The glass layers provide the major component of the strength and stiffness to the panel, and you need to preserve their integrity, and not sand into them.

That area is approximately where the water surface (and debris) will impact the hull when planing at speed - I'm not sure a pile of weak filler between the wood and the glass is a good idea in that area.

When are you ever going to see it, after the hull is flipped?

David Nolan over on FishyFish swears by an 80 grit flap wheel on an angle grinder for finish sanding...............  Just be careful!!

Brian should be along shortly, and set us all straight

That's a good point Jim... I am going to do a bit of investigation to see how well the layers are laminated. There might be a void, although I think my underlying (first layer) scarf wasn't quite square and was a bit off center on the scarf surface which pushed up the next scarf joint a bit. I will drill a couple holes though to have a look...
Title: Re: Outdoor build of GA Kodiak, Orange, CA
Post by: json on August 16, 2019, 12:38:15 PM
A couple of exploratory holes later and I don't think there is a void. It's sort of hard to see in this pic but I put about 5 holes into spots that were in various locations near or far from fasteners or the joint (including one on the actual joint) and it seems like there aren't any gaps. I might do more just to make myself sleep better but I am pretty sure the bottom joint was shifted a bit up the joint on the top and that it just left a short surface on the top to adhere to. Looking from below there is a small ridge, combine that with possibly too much glue and maybe not a great centering of the second panel and I am pretty sure that's what is causing the issue.
Title: Re: Outdoor build of GA Kodiak, Orange, CA
Post by: json on August 16, 2019, 01:29:27 PM
David Nolan over on FishyFish swears by an 80 grit flap wheel on an angle grinder for finish sanding...............  Just be careful!!

This is hilarious... haha... I had some fill that wasn't quite stiff enough run into the chine flat on that seam and grabbed one of those wheels to clean it up. An hour and a whole crap-ton of dust later I had removed the material as well as cleaned up all the chine seams, and spent the next day filling all the craters I left behind. hahaha. Those wheels are no joke.
Title: Re: Outdoor build of GA Kodiak, Orange, CA
Post by: Brian.Dixon on August 17, 2019, 08:15:48 AM

I think everyone's on the right track here.  Use your eyes .... they're great at spotting un-fair conditions.  I expect a combo of taking off material at the 'hump' combined with filling on either side is the secret.  A little of each.  Get it right now and the final exterior sheathing will smooth things out.  Same on chines, especially near any scarfing.  It's OK if it's not perfect ... just tune it in and go forth.  I always say, "The difference between a good wood worker and a bad is that a good one knows how to hide the defects".  Each step in construction is a combination of fixing what wasn't perfect in the last step followed by performing the next step.  In the end, you get a fantastic boat!

Brian

Title: Re: Outdoor build of GA Kodiak, Orange, CA
Post by: json on October 10, 2019, 03:00:47 PM
I glassed the final strake today, they took forever and a day. I had to take down my tarp covering it because santa ana winds are supposed to be kicking up today and tomorrow, so I didn't want to have to go track it down after the blow. Question regarding epoxy and UV - how long can I leave this uncovered? I notice some of the epoxy is starting to turn yellow where it has been in the sun here and there, and I am trying to knock out the final fairing on the bottom and get it coated with graphite epoxy. I tried using titanium dioxide in epoxy on one of the sides to block UV but it's so heavy that it's really difficult to keep in solution, which means it's tough to get onto the boat. Any thoughts on how quickly/slowly UV damages epoxy would be helpful. It is also moving to fall which means the intensity of the sun is less, so that should sort of help on that front a bit.

Another question I have been wondering, I ordered some interlux primekote high body filler. Brian, you had mentioned somewhere that it 'hides a thousand sins'. I am pretty sure I have more than a thousand, but just how fair should I be trying to get before applying primer? For instance, if I miss fairing a seam of like 10oz cloth would a high body primer successfully hide that? I am hoping I can just get it it roughly dialed and then a couple coats of primer with a good sand in between and be done. I suppose I can test it on a scrap with different sized flaws and see what I can come up with. If I do primer and then find I need more fill, do I need to sand it all off before applying more fairing compound?
Title: Re: Outdoor build of GA Kodiak, Orange, CA
Post by: Brian.Dixon on October 10, 2019, 04:07:59 PM
This time of year, your latitude, I wouldn't worry about the UV at this point.  Discoloration happens long before breakdown and you'll be adding additional coats.

The barrier primer that I referred to is Interlux Barrier Kote 404/414.  It's a high-body primer.  The sins that it hides are more like rough grit sanding, not unfaired fiberglass edges.  I'd still fair things in, final sand with 100-grit, and use a high-body primer.  The 404/414 isn't the only one.  Just make sure it's compatible with epoxy and your paint system.  Sometimes, you have to put on a coat of your paint system's primer on top of the thicker barrier coat primer in order for your paint to stick well.  Tech support is your friend.....

Brian
Title: Re: Outdoor build of GA Kodiak, Orange, CA
Post by: json on October 10, 2019, 04:40:02 PM
Good to know, thanks Brian. Interlux Barrier Kote 404/414 - that's the one. Back to fairing.
Title: Re: Outdoor build of GA Kodiak, Orange, CA
Post by: Djeffrey on October 11, 2019, 09:55:06 AM
The boat is looking good. Brian do you think this primer would be a good choice for painting the inside of things like the crash chamber or bed bunks? Looking for something I can use that is white and bright but not too many fumes. Getting cold here and hard to ventilate fumes
Title: Re: Outdoor build of GA Kodiak, Orange, CA
Post by: json on October 11, 2019, 01:47:33 PM
I think others have used titanium dioxide for this purpose, as it pigments but apparently doesn't offer a lot of UV protection, so good for undersides of decks. I had a heck of a time trying to keep it from sinking out when using it but I suppose if I stirred a lot and did a lot of coats it probably would have worked fine. No fumes that way, from the research I was doing about primers the epoxy ones are scary to work with in closed spaces.
Title: Re: Outdoor build of GA Kodiak, Orange, CA
Post by: Brian.Dixon on October 12, 2019, 06:45:32 AM

The 404/414 stuff is stinky ... open a can and then decide if you want to apply it under decks and in crash chambers.

For under deck where it might be wet, I'd use a quality marine paint system .... but any primer that the paint system uses is fine, even if not high-body.  This stuff is hidden, so don't spend extra money and time on it.  Just scrape whatever glass edges and what not that you need to so that water can drain to the bilge unimpeded.

Rustoleum Marine paints (usually from Lowe's) works well and is inexpensive for inside bunks, crash chambers and under decks.  I find that regular ol' spray-cans of Rustoleum works well for getting hidden and hard to reach areas painted.  I've got a boat where the inside of the bunks were painted with that 20 years ago and it's still like new in there.... nice and white.

Brian

Title: Re: Outdoor build of GA Kodiak, Orange, CA
Post by: Djeffrey on November 12, 2019, 07:54:09 AM
I wanted to let you know I found an outfit in lake havasu that builds aluminum fuel tanks. There priced are so much better then others I checked into. Let me know if need there names, much closer then shipping from the east coast of up north. Dennis in pagosa springs
Title: Re: Outdoor build of GA Kodiak, Orange, CA
Post by: json on November 12, 2019, 08:34:12 AM
I wanted to let you know I found an outfit in lake havasu that builds aluminum fuel tanks. There priced are so much better then others I checked into. Let me know if need there names, much closer then shipping from the east coast of up north. Dennis in pagosa springs

Absolutely! :) I can take a road trip and pick one up and dodge shipping potentially. I am also curious what dimensions you are ordering your tank at and what it cost you if you are interested in sharing!
Title: Re: Outdoor build of GA Kodiak, Orange, CA
Post by: Djeffrey on November 12, 2019, 05:25:04 PM
I too am driving that way to save $500 plus in shipping costs. The company name is KSH fuel products. I went with a single tank that is 8 feet long, 3 baffles, 3/16 5052 aluminum124 gallons. The cost was right around $1100. Still working with them on details. Looks like about 2-3 weeks out. BTW, also having a trailer built in Salt Lake City as well, metal craft trailers. Right around $6000. You might do yourself justice by looking for a nice used one. Not many used 28 foot trailers in Colorado. 🍻
Title: Re: Outdoor build of GA Kodiak, Orange, CA
Post by: json on November 13, 2019, 08:05:35 AM
I too am driving that way to save $500 plus in shipping costs. The company name is KSH fuel products. I went with a single tank that is 8 feet long, 3 baffles, 3/16 5052 aluminum124 gallons. The cost was right around $1100. Still working with them on details. Looks like about 2-3 weeks out. BTW, also having a trailer built in Salt Lake City as well, metal craft trailers. Right around $6000. You might do yourself justice by looking for a nice used one. Not many used 28 foot trailers in Colorado. 🍻

I have had my eye on used trailers, a lot of what I am finding doesn't have a title and I am not sure how to get it titled. It's probably going to take me a bit more research how to go about that, there have been a few titled dual axle trailers that would have worked but I am not really ready to take one on yet as I don't really have the space. I should probably make space though and get it in the works so I am not feeling rushed to rehab it. Thanks for the info on the tank. 40 gallons and a day sounds way better than $500 shipping for sure...
Title: Re: Outdoor build of GA Kodiak, Orange, CA
Post by: json on November 27, 2019, 05:30:51 PM
So apparently my neighbor is as sick of sanding as I am. She came by and told me that I am not to be sanding on Sundays and holidays and asked me if this was ever going to end and if I did this for a living, and I smiled and nodded and told her that I was just as sick of sanding as she was and hopefully wrapping it up soon and then promptly got back to sanding. I looked into city ordinance about it and I am able to be cited if I sustain average noise of over 55dB, which a random orbit with a 5 hp shop vac hooked up to it is well over that I would imagine. Either way, it's a good excuse to not make things perfect so I am thinking once the rain subsides I will give flipping a hull a go and give the sanding a break for a while.

Speaking of rain, the first big rain of the year came, and I thought I was good since everything is coated and cured. Of course when I went to go look at all the beautiful water cascading off my project I looked up under the edge next to the shelves/transom and the edge ply is soaked. Water wicked up around the corner and up into the wood. I am going to put some duct tape on the edge and let it overhang and hopefully it will ride out the storm and divert the rest of the water where it should go and not to never never land. There is becoming less and less places for the water to get out once it's in so I am hoping I can keep as much out as I can. There is always some challenge being outside tho, whether it's the dew point with applying epoxy or santa ana winds blowing around crap after a full boat coating. I am jealous of all you guys and your warm sheltered shops to work in. The hull is nice and clean now so there is that... :)

Title: Re: Outdoor build of GA Kodiak, Orange, CA
Post by: Todd j on November 27, 2019, 08:44:45 PM
I think my radio is louder than that.  Hope she doesnít become a problem for you.  One way or another the end of the sanding is something to look forward to
Title: Re: Outdoor build of GA Kodiak, Orange, CA
Post by: json on November 27, 2019, 09:29:55 PM
I think my radio is louder than that.  Hope she doesnít become a problem for you.  One way or another the end of the sanding is something to look forward to

Ya, I sort of look at it like she is doing me a favor when I am not being irritated that she is getting upset that I am working in my driveway on a random Wednesday morning... I am seriously sick of sanding, it feels like that is all that I have been doing for months haha. I am sure you know the feeling. I did look into pneumatic sanders and whether or not they are quieter. I assume most of the noise though is coming from the hull reverberating with the vibration acting like a big amplifier. Either way, probably better to just be quiet for a bit instead of having the Orange fuzz threatening me to stop it or pay $$. It's a good excuse for a break and to move on to the next phase and forget this one for a bit.
Title: Re: Outdoor build of GA Kodiak, Orange, CA
Post by: Brian.Dixon on November 28, 2019, 06:54:35 AM
Tell her that you owe her a dinner to celebrate the end of sanding when it occurs....
Title: Re: Outdoor build of GA Kodiak, Orange, CA
Post by: json on December 01, 2019, 06:02:11 PM
Brian, that's not a bad idea about the dinner thing, if it comes up again I might take that route. In any case, I did a little flipping yesterday to close out November. It was interesting, as the hull doesn't fit below the cranes I made, so I had to be creative and pick it up behind and in front from the u bolts. My first try I tried picking the aft end up from the transom eye and almost collapsed my gantry with the sheer load. I did a bit more reenforcement of the sheer and then tried again, this time using a strap between the eye bolts on the transom to try to pick it up closer to center and then spin it in the air and set it down again. I got it almost to the rotation point and then decided I should probably get some help, so I recruited my brother in law. We got at it and as it rotated to the weight being towards the keel I tried to control the weight transfer with a rope. Unfortunately it slipped on the strap and transferred a massive sideways load into the crane. 3 out of the 4 sheer supports were sheared off, the 4th cracked but held on. The hull settled down with the weight centered and the crane held, so it was just a matter of lowering it from that point and putting it down right side up after I stabilized the gantry. The rest was uneventful. Either way, I think this flip would have gone perfectly if I had used something like a knot in the strap to keep it from slipping instead of just looping it around the carabiner a number of times and trying to use the overlapping force to keep it there. Either way, the hull is now sitting on the cradles right side up, and a new chapter begins. Here's a couple of time-lapse videos of doing the flip.

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=pr-XLXuqqIM

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=5fCFi0Dyg4s

Title: Re: Outdoor build of GA Kodiak, Orange, CA
Post by: Todd j on December 01, 2019, 10:56:50 PM
Fun stuff!   The carabiner used that way is kinda dangerous.  I did something similar to pick straight up, even though itís prohibited practice.  That being said I have to tell on myself a bit I guess.  I used 2x6 bolted through the shear decks at the transom and about 6 feet aft of the bow.  I used a choke just inside the the shear deck so the center of gravity would pick it over center.   I let the 2x6 skid across the floor so the boat wouldnít touch.  I was thinking it was time to install the hold back.  One more tug on the chain fall and the whole boat went.  It was swinging from the rafters and almost knocked me over!  At least 2 feet side to side.  I ended up putting the hold backs on after that.
Title: Re: Outdoor build of GA Kodiak, Orange, CA
Post by: json on December 02, 2019, 08:14:25 AM
Hahaha... darn... Ya, that's scary. I was trying to stay well clear of the direction it was going to fall/tip so if it did go I would have at least not been directly in the path, but I can't imagine being in a small shop while doing that with nowhere to run, not that there would be time to even react probably.

The carabiners I used had a 7 kN rating the open/closed direction, and a rating of 25kN the other direction, so while I am not going to pretend to know physics well enough to estimate a dynamic load, the rating would suggest that if nothing slipped (it did) then even on the weakest side they should be able to hold 1/2 of a thousand pound hull. Idk, maybe I am not considering something else about it though. If so I would love to hear so the next time I flip a boat I don't make the same mistake. I don't have a lot of experience lifting things or using cranes, I do have a lot of engineering math under my belt but that doesn't translate well to understanding real world scenarios for dos and don'ts.
Title: Re: Outdoor build of GA Kodiak, Orange, CA
Post by: Todd j on December 02, 2019, 08:35:12 AM
What it boils down to is you need an eye to hold your shackle against slipping.  You can see examples in my flip pics.  I did break the rules when I lifted the upright hull onto the jig.  But it really could t go any where.
  Proper rated rigging materials is the key. 
Title: Re: Outdoor build of GA Kodiak, Orange, CA
Post by: json on December 02, 2019, 09:53:09 AM
Right. Ya, I kind of realized that after it slipped and almost brought the whole thing down haha. Either way, glad that chapter is behind me, the whole thing was really sketchy but at some point I was committed and going for it. Glad I didn't drop it and cost myself a bunch more work or worse off put someone in the hospital or ruin the hull.
Title: Re: Outdoor build of GA Kodiak, Orange, CA
Post by: Djeffrey on December 02, 2019, 05:23:06 PM
Congrats, half way there. Looks really good. Just so you know, I too have a bunch of sanding to do on my sides still.
Title: Re: Outdoor build of GA Kodiak, Orange, CA
Post by: Jim_Hbar on December 03, 2019, 11:34:40 AM
Hahaha... darn... Ya, that's scary. I was trying to stay well clear of the direction it was going to fall/tip so if it did go I would have at least not been directly in the path, but I can't imagine being in a small shop while doing that with nowhere to run, not that there would be time to even react probably.

The carabiners I used had a 7 kN rating the open/closed direction, and a rating of 25kN the other direction, so while I am not going to pretend to know physics well enough to estimate a dynamic load, the rating would suggest that if nothing slipped (it did) then even on the weakest side they should be able to hold 1/2 of a thousand pound hull. Idk, maybe I am not considering something else about it though. If so I would love to hear so the next time I flip a boat I don't make the same mistake. I don't have a lot of experience lifting things or using cranes, I do have a lot of engineering math under my belt but that doesn't translate well to understanding real world scenarios for dos and don'ts.

I'm sure glad nobody got hurt, and the hull survived the ordeal.  You got lucky, very lucky! 
But don't EVER use a carbiner or sling like that again! >:(  And those eyebolts  ::)
No mention of your sawhorses..

Here's some "engineering math" for you to consider.  From WorkSafeBC.

(https://i.imgur.com/gGPOwsi.jpg)

BTW, I'm one of those guys mentioned in sub-section 15.6(2).. 
And I have done some work in this area, professionally.

If you would like some direction next time, PM me.

I'm trying not to be an A@# about it, but my first duty is to protect the public safety.

Hope that helps!



Title: Re: Outdoor build of GA Kodiak, Orange, CA
Post by: json on December 03, 2019, 02:01:43 PM
Hahaha... darn... Ya, that's scary. I was trying to stay well clear of the direction it was going to fall/tip so if it did go I would have at least not been directly in the path, but I can't imagine being in a small shop while doing that with nowhere to run, not that there would be time to even react probably.

The carabiners I used had a 7 kN rating the open/closed direction, and a rating of 25kN the other direction, so while I am not going to pretend to know physics well enough to estimate a dynamic load, the rating would suggest that if nothing slipped (it did) then even on the weakest side they should be able to hold 1/2 of a thousand pound hull. Idk, maybe I am not considering something else about it though. If so I would love to hear so the next time I flip a boat I don't make the same mistake. I don't have a lot of experience lifting things or using cranes, I do have a lot of engineering math under my belt but that doesn't translate well to understanding real world scenarios for dos and don'ts.

I'm sure glad nobody got hurt, and the hull survived the ordeal.  You got lucky, very lucky! 
But don't EVER use a carbiner or sling like that again! >:(  And those eyebolts  ::)
No mention of your sawhorses..

Here's some "engineering math" for you to consider.  From WorkSafeBC.

(https://i.imgur.com/gGPOwsi.jpg)

BTW, I'm one of those guys mentioned in sub-section 15.6(2).. 
And I have done some work in this area, professionally.

If you would like some direction next time, PM me.

I'm trying not to be an A@# about it, but my first duty is to protect the public safety.

Hope that helps!


Fair enough Jim. I admittedly deserve this, and while I considered taking this stuff down because it's not my finest moment, I left it up for now in hopes that future folks who are like me who are not versed in minimum design factors in rigging can see my mistakes and not make them again and put themselves in danger. Like I said (and I am sure you can tell), I literally have almost no real world experience with building or lifting anything of substance. This week I learned a lot of things, and in the future I can apply them.

However, might I suggest you work on your tact a bit, as typically when you open an interaction blasting someone they close up to suggestion. After your post the last thing I want to do is to ask you for help tbh. A better way to approach it is to leave off the condescending bit and just focus on the educational one. Food for thought...
Title: Re: Outdoor build of GA Kodiak, Orange, CA
Post by: Jim_Hbar on December 03, 2019, 02:46:03 PM
However, might I suggest you work on your tact a bit, as typically when you open an interaction blasting someone they close up to suggestion. After your post the last thing I want to do is to ask you for help tbh. A better way to approach it is to leave off the condescending bit and just focus on the educational one. Food for thought...

Json: 
I really don't see where my tone was condescending - If you believe so, sorry, you did not read the information I provided in the fashion in which it was intended.. 

If you want to attack me for trying to help you, when you asked for the help, well, you are not really thinking it through.

Idk, maybe I am not considering something else about it though. If so I would love to hear so the next time I flip a boat I don't make the same mistake. I don't have a lot of experience lifting things or using cranes, I do have a lot of engineering math under my belt but that doesn't translate well to understanding real world scenarios for dos and don'ts.

Unfortunately, only about 10% of a message is conveyed in the words.  And I thought you wanted some constructive feedback from your post.  I guess that was not really the case... ::)
Title: Re: Outdoor build of GA Kodiak, Orange, CA
Post by: json on December 03, 2019, 04:05:18 PM
Jim, I do want constructive feedback. Thanks for giving it. I am not entirely sure what sawhorses have to do with anything, and maybe it was how you used emoticons, but I am not usually a bristly person and I bristled. So if I misunderstood you then my apologies.
Title: Re: Outdoor build of GA Kodiak, Orange, CA
Post by: Jim_Hbar on December 03, 2019, 05:48:57 PM
Json: No problem.

Engineers have a reputation for being blunt and/or terse, and which can be interpreted as being curt.  When discussing a technical topic, I do tend to shift into "engineer mode".  You stating that you could do the engineering calculations probably caused me to make an unconscious assumption.
I've had meetings with a junior engineer and a draftsman, discussing particular aspects of a project - and after the discussion of a particular point, have the draftsman ask "what the hell did you guys just talk about?". 

You need to understand my position - As a P.Eng., one can create a liability exposure if one is not careful. Or be accused of practicing in a jurisdiction that one is not licensed for.  I read these forums for entertainment and education. And post only if I have a contribution (or a joke) to make.

What I'm calling "sawhorses" are what you referred to as "gantries".  It's mostly an attempt at humor.
To me, gantries are mobile crane assemblies, and thus would have a rated capacity.

Some hints:
- Crosby makes good "rated" rigging - it is darn expensive, but their rigging guides have good application information.  Here is some light reading. (https://www.thecrosbygroup.com/catalog/rigging-information/)
- You will not find a "rated" formed eyebolt.  The bloody things open up just when you need them not to.  It's bad juju pulling sideways on an eyebolt, even the good ones!  For a hint on how to do it, look at the design of the bolted anchors used in rock climbing.
- In normal use, slings should not be used at angles less than 60deg. from the horizontal.  The tension loads in the sling increase dramatically as the sling angle approaches the horizontal, when lifting.
- Use shackles not caribiners.
- Do not tie knots in slings.
Title: Re: Outdoor build of GA Kodiak, Orange, CA
Post by: Brian.Dixon on December 04, 2019, 06:30:10 AM
<snip>
Engineers have a reputation for being blunt and/or terse, and which can be interpreted as being curt.  When discussing a technical topic, I do tend to shift into "engineer mode".
<snip>

I have this issue ... too frank, too blunt.  Comes across wrong when text is all the other person is getting ... instead of my charming smile and a pat on the back while I tell them what all their problems are ... LOL  :D :D

Brian


Title: Re: Outdoor build of GA Kodiak, Orange, CA
Post by: Djeffrey on December 04, 2019, 09:35:47 AM
I am laughing out here in Colorado. I have a couple friends out here who sound just like you guys. Engineers are a unique personality but they sure are handy at times. The problem is they always want to do things the right way, for me winging it is half the adventure. The key is to always have an escape route. 😂
Title: Re: Outdoor build of GA Kodiak, Orange, CA
Post by: json on December 07, 2019, 08:33:39 PM
Am I reading the manual right that the sheer is 1/2" ply only? Is this still the case if I go wider on the sheer in the cockpit, say 10"? Could I go thicker and use 3/4" if that is the case?

Another question, I found out that west systems microfibers 403 is apparently not the same thing as microfibers referenced for strengthening fillets in the manual. I mixed 403 into my fillet mix for the stem/shelves joint and one large transom fillet before I realized the err of my ways and used real microfibers. Should I reinforce the fillets or joints with larger fillets with epoxy with actual microfibers in them or will those fillets be ok? I assume they will be good enough, but repairing a cracked fillet in those areas sounds painful. I think on the transom I used a 4" diameter fillet.
Title: Re: Outdoor build of GA Kodiak, Orange, CA
Post by: Brian.Dixon on December 08, 2019, 07:04:12 AM
No reason to go thicker than 1/2" ply for sheer decks, even if you go 10" instead of the prescribed 9" wide decks.  ALL edges are supported in the finished boat.  For example, along the pilot house and cuddy, the inner edge is supported by the pilot house and cuddy side panels.  In the cockpit, all models recommend coaming along the inside edge as well (see pic below).  The only difference between the models on the cockpit coaming is that the Newport and Rockport have coaming that runs about 3/4" above the top of the sheer decking, and on the Prince Rupert and Kodiak, the coaming runs higher.  The structure shown below is extremely stiff and strong.  The span of the decking between the underlying 5" shelves and the inward edge of the sheer decking is only 4" plus or minus ... well within the capabilities of 1/2" plywood.  The bottom line?  No worries ... build as described.

WEST 403 Minifibers use COTTON fibers.  When the Great Alaskan plans ask for minifibers, it means FIBERGLASS minifibers ... good catch!  Unfortunate product name by WEST!  I'm pretty sure I say "fiberglass" together with "minifibers" in the plans.   WEST also makes a mix of PLASTIC minifibers, which are used for final fairing of boats attractive to the 'wood rubbers' crowd that think all boats should look like colorful mirrors.... LOL.

Coaming on the inner edge of the cockpit sheer decks:

(https://www.glacierboats.com/images/coaming.png)
Title: Re: Outdoor build of GA Kodiak, Orange, CA
Post by: json on December 08, 2019, 03:44:20 PM
No reason to go thicker than 1/2" ply for sheer decks, even if you go 10" instead of the prescribed 9" wide decks.  ALL edges are supported in the finished boat.  For example, along the pilot house and cuddy, the inner edge is supported by the pilot house and cuddy side panels.  In the cockpit, all models recommend coaming along the inside edge as well (see pic below).  The only difference between the models on the cockpit coaming is that the Newport and Rockport have coaming that runs about 3/4" above the top of the sheer decking, and on the Prince Rupert and Kodiak, the coaming runs higher.  The structure shown below is extremely stiff and strong.  The span of the decking between the underlying 5" shelves and the inward edge of the sheer decking is only 4" plus or minus ... well within the capabilities of 1/2" plywood.  The bottom line?  No worries ... build as described.

Makes sense, thanks Brian!
Title: Re: Outdoor build of GA Kodiak, Orange, CA
Post by: Brian.Dixon on December 08, 2019, 05:20:26 PM
Sorry for being so wordy...😁
Title: Re: Outdoor build of GA Kodiak, Orange, CA
Post by: json on December 08, 2019, 10:19:37 PM
So wordy? Never! Always clearing up confusion and/or misinformation, as well as making searchable information for other builders who might wonder the same thing. Keep up the good work sir, you are doing a fine job of it. This forum is seriously such a valuable resource (and being able to ask you questions Brian in particular). It's kind of mind blowing.
Title: Re: Outdoor build of GA Kodiak, Orange, CA
Post by: Brian.Dixon on December 09, 2019, 05:43:30 AM
So wordy? Never! Always clearing up confusion and/or misinformation, as well as making searchable information for other builders who might wonder the same thing. Keep up the good work sir, you are doing a fine job of it. This forum is seriously such a valuable resource (and being able to ask you questions Brian in particular). It's kind of mind blowing.

Thanks ... nice to be appreciated :D  For me, it's a labor of love :D



Title: Re: Outdoor build of GA Kodiak, Orange, CA
Post by: json on December 23, 2019, 04:21:43 PM
My seams and fillets are done, and I am moving forward with much more interesting work cutting things out of wood again. I don't see it specifically mentioned other than saying things should be (at least) triple coated with epoxy, but should I be glassing things like the crash chamber bulkhead/top or the bunks (and really any interior plywood in the cuddy or pilothouse) or just coating them with epoxy? Glassing them would certainly increase the amount of work involved but I worry a bit about plywood checking in a place I can't see.

Todd's jiggle stick method worked awesome for me also, it was really great to just cut something super rough out for the template and then be able to quickly record a set of points onto it and then transpose those onto the real thing. My cc top came out pretty close first shot.
Title: Re: Outdoor build of GA Kodiak, Orange, CA
Post by: Brian.Dixon on December 23, 2019, 04:42:18 PM
It's mentioned in the general how-to epoxy and glass part of the manual.  Interior wood can just be coated with epoxy (other than the hull and deck themselves).  I suggest using sliced-ply or other smooth wood that will not check for building interior components.  Peeled-ply wood like fir should be avoided or glassed to prevent checking.  I consider the crash chamber and bulkheads to be part of the boat, BTW, so yes, glass the plywood for them, but it's optional on the bunks and other interior furniture etc.

Brian

Title: Re: Outdoor build of GA Kodiak, Orange, CA
Post by: json on December 23, 2019, 05:01:39 PM
Got it, thanks.
Title: Re: Outdoor build of GA Kodiak, Orange, CA
Post by: Todd j on December 23, 2019, 08:36:45 PM
Once again for the slow kids please.  Whatís the difference between sliced and peeled plywood?   I bought okume for everything above the decks
Title: Re: Outdoor build of GA Kodiak, Orange, CA
Post by: Todd j on December 23, 2019, 08:57:15 PM
My seams and fillets are done, and I am moving forward with much more interesting work cutting things out of wood again. I don't see it specifically mentioned other than saying things should be (at least) triple coated with epoxy, but should I be glassing things like the crash chamber bulkhead/top or the bunks (and really any interior plywood in the cuddy or pilothouse) or just coating them with epoxy? Glassing them would certainly increase the amount of work involved but I worry a bit about plywood checking in a place I can't see.

Todd's jiggle stick method worked awesome for me also, it was really great to just cut something super rough out for the template and then be able to quickly record a set of points onto it and then transpose those onto the real thing. My cc top came out pretty close first shot.
[/quote

I found it helpful to count how many points you lay out.  Some colored pencils would be nice too.  I get so many tracings itís hard to tell what is what.  So far I have used the same piece of doorskin for every pattern.  I just hit it with the RO sander and use it again. 
Title: Re: Outdoor build of GA Kodiak, Orange, CA
Post by: Djeffrey on December 23, 2019, 10:05:34 PM
Lol, Iím glad Iím not the only passenger on the short bus. If you bought okoume, your good. I soaked a piece in water for a day, dried it, and it looked new.
Title: Re: Outdoor build of GA Kodiak, Orange, CA
Post by: json on December 23, 2019, 11:52:16 PM
My seams and fillets are done, and I am moving forward with much more interesting work cutting things out of wood again. I don't see it specifically mentioned other than saying things should be (at least) triple coated with epoxy, but should I be glassing things like the crash chamber bulkhead/top or the bunks (and really any interior plywood in the cuddy or pilothouse) or just coating them with epoxy? Glassing them would certainly increase the amount of work involved but I worry a bit about plywood checking in a place I can't see.

Todd's jiggle stick method worked awesome for me also, it was really great to just cut something super rough out for the template and then be able to quickly record a set of points onto it and then transpose those onto the real thing. My cc top came out pretty close first shot.
[/quote

I found it helpful to count how many points you lay out.  Some colored pencils would be nice too.  I get so many tracings itís hard to tell what is what.  So far I have used the same piece of doorskin for every pattern.  I just hit it with the RO sander and use it again. 

I was getting a bit confused for the same piece haha. Can't imagine using it over and over. Maybe colored pencils is the trick. Either way that is a pretty cool way of making a key of the layout of something, thanks for sharing.
Title: Re: Outdoor build of GA Kodiak, Orange, CA
Post by: Brian.Dixon on December 24, 2019, 08:09:37 AM
Once again for the slow kids please.  Whatís the difference between sliced and peeled plywood?   I bought okume for everything above the decks

Slice-Ply:  Large logs are sliced into thin veneers ... think of a big band saw slicing thin sheets of wood from a large log.  These sheets are then trimmed, glued and stacked, then pressed and cured to produce plywood.  Hardwood plywood, including all mahoganies and faux mahoganies such as Lauan, is ALWAYS sliced, not peeled.

Peeled-Ply:  Logs are rotated against a knife of sorts to peel wood off the log - kinda like taking paper off of a toilet paper roll.  These sheets are then FLATTENED before they are trimmed, stacked, glued and pressed etc to create plywood.  The plies started out 'wrapped around a log' before being flattened.  Flattening 'stretches' one face of the ply and compresses the other.  Flattening stresses the wood into a non-natural shape for the ply.  This works fine with modern pressing and gluing, but it's why peeled-ply plywood tends to warp and tends to 'check' (fine surface cracks) over time, especially if exposed to water or high humidity repeatedly.  Peeled-ply is ONLY made from softwoods such as douglas fir, southern yellow pine, birch etc.

Either plywood is fine for boat building, but due to the tendency to check, peeled-ply plywood needs sheathing with at least a light layer of fiberglass.  If building for interior boat furniture, even just 1-1/2 ounce glass on the face of the plywood will prevent checking.  Sliced-ply plywood, however, doesn't tend to check.  It's smoother to start with, and only requires 3-4 coats of epoxy, no fiberglass, to make it waterproof.  The same applies to modern wood products that are made from fibers, coated or not, as long as the resin is at least exterior grade, e.g. exterior MDO.  Fiber-based wood products do tend to be heavier though, but for a boat the size of the Great Alaskan, that is not an issue.

Brian

Title: Re: Outdoor build of GA Kodiak, Orange, CA
Post by: json on January 09, 2020, 10:21:11 AM
After the never ending seam-fest finally wrapped up it's been nice shifting gears to build some of the other components. I have the crash chamber largely done, have been working on the front section of the sheer deck and pulpit, and have been glassing full sheets of ply to hopefully reduce time spent waiting for glue to dry on the things I cut out of them. I am using leftover LVL to create a support for the pulpit, hopefully it's sufficient to support it.

Is the sheer raised in the GA Kodiak? Should I be translating this into an offset for things like how tall the cuddy roof is above the sheer decks? I am not particularly tall so I don't think I would need say an additional 4" of headroom in there or the cabin if that would be the result of using measurements as stated, although maybe it would be nice if it wasn't going to cause issues with the wind. 

Also, tangental, when I am trying to post this I am getting some 500 errors (specifically uploading a specific image, not sure why)...
Title: Re: Outdoor build of GA Kodiak, Orange, CA
Post by: json on January 09, 2020, 10:23:04 AM
pics
Title: Re: Outdoor build of GA Kodiak, Orange, CA
Post by: Brian.Dixon on January 09, 2020, 12:03:22 PM
Is the sheer raised in the GA Kodiak? Should I be translating this into an offset for things like how tall the cuddy roof is above the sheer decks? I am not particularly tall so I don't think I would need say an additional 4" of headroom in there or the cabin if that would be the result of using measurements as stated, although maybe it would be nice if it wasn't going to cause issues with the wind. 

The sheer on the Kodiak is about 6" higher than on the standard Great Alaskan, but the pilot house roof is at the SAME height as the standard.  There was no reason to raise the roof, so to speak, on the Kodiak!  Take a look at the Temporary Framing drawing in the Kodiak Addendum.

Brian

PS: Haven't heard of image upload issues ... a 500 error response is 'Server Error'.  Odd.  Still having the issue?  If so, email the pic to me and I'll look into it.  I'm at idaho dot dixons at gmail dot com

Title: Re: Outdoor build of GA Kodiak, Orange, CA
Post by: json on January 09, 2020, 01:54:23 PM
Ok, ya, I thought it was raised, 6" is a lot. :) I will have to keep that in mind for any measurement that needs the reference of the shelves or sheer deck (sheet 13x comes to mind, the fore cuddy bulkhead, which has a vertical measurement which should be from the sheer deck I think). Just to double check I should be removing that amount from such instances right?

jb
Title: Re: Outdoor build of GA Kodiak, Orange, CA
Post by: Brian.Dixon on January 09, 2020, 04:32:52 PM
Ok, ya, I thought it was raised, 6" is a lot. :) I will have to keep that in mind for any measurement that needs the reference of the shelves or sheer deck (sheet 13x comes to mind, the fore cuddy bulkhead, which has a vertical measurement which should be from the sheer deck I think). Just to double check I should be removing that amount from such instances right?

jb

I just double checked... the Kodiak is 5" deeper, not 6".  Look at the Temporary Framing section of the Kodiak Addendum.

 Also, in the section called "Superstructure", the Kodiak addendum says to make the pilot house no taller than for the standard Great Alaskan ... which indirectly implies that both the lower pilot house side panels and the cuddy side panels will be shorter, vertically, by 5" on the Kodiak as compared to the standard.  That's if you want the windows of the pilot house to be just the same as the Standard (what I recommend).  You will fit the aft cuddy and aft house bulkheads to the taller hull of the Kodiak, no problem.  Adjusting the house lower and cuddy side panels shorter may prevent the strong downslope of the Newport design's cuddy ... Don't feel bad if you need to adjust, vertically, the lower pilot house and cuddy side panels to get the effect that you want.  And as you mention, these thoughts apply to the forward cuddy bulkhead, height of the aft cuddy bulkhead above the sheer etc.  I should probably flesh out some of these details and update the Kodiak Addendum a bit.  There's always something ... :) .  The goal with the Kodiak is to give it a nice proportionate hull and house height.  The house and cuddy will be more 'hidden in the hull' than with the standard Great Alaskan ... which looks better and is safer, more seaworthy, without adding unnecessary height to the house ... don't need more windage when parking in a slip!

Brian

Title: Re: Outdoor build of GA Kodiak, Orange, CA
Post by: Brian.Dixon on January 11, 2020, 10:26:24 AM
Json and others who are building the Kodiak Model.  Go to our website and download the latest Kodiak Model instruction manual (dated 1-11-2020):

UPDATE:

Let me know if you have any questions.

Brian
Title: Re: Outdoor build of GA Kodiak, Orange, CA
Post by: json on January 23, 2020, 01:42:23 PM
I am measuring and marking the aft cuddy bulkhead, and it's ending up where the chine is about an inch and a half proud of the top of the stringers. I am putting it as far forward as I can (I am not really that tall plus want more cabin space) but I am thinking maybe my measurement is skewed forward due to the longer stem plus maybe my math might have a bit of a fudge because of my pulpit I put on the bow. If I move the bulkhead back about 14-18" or so then the bulkhead would sit on the stringers and the chines, but then I would have a longer cuddy than I really want. Am I going to run into issues if I don't move the bulkhead back to where it will sit flat on the stringers and chines or can I just notch it and the doubler to accommodate them (chines) and then just cut the cabin sole to fit?
Title: Re: Outdoor build of GA Kodiak, Orange, CA
Post by: Brian.Dixon on January 23, 2020, 04:00:01 PM

You won't run into any issues.  Given similar measurements, the extended stem shouldn't be more than 3" off though, so not sure I'm getting what you're saying yet.  BUT, the locations you are talking about are fine.  Make sure that when you make the upper house side panels, that they do run straight.  If you move the aft cuddy bulkhead too far forward, then it just means the pilot house will end up a tad narrower at the f'w'd end compared to the stern end (upper side panels that is).

Title: Re: Outdoor build of GA Kodiak, Orange, CA
Post by: json on January 23, 2020, 04:12:08 PM
Ok, that makes sense. I am basically saying that I am aiming for the furthest fore that I can put the bulkhead, and the chines are an inch and a half above the tops of the stringers, and 14" or so aft of that point they are even, which is more or less as far aft as the specification allows (including 8" aft plus the extra 3" for the stem and a bit of margin for error). Interesting consideration for the upper side panels. I will fast forward a bit in the manual and see how that will all look with respect to where this bulkhead is positioned to go currently.
Title: Re: Outdoor build of GA Kodiak, Orange, CA
Post by: Todd j on January 23, 2020, 05:42:46 PM
FWIW.  I used the number for the long cuddy.  I had to notch the aft cuddy bulkhead lower corners for my bulkhead to sit on the stringers. 
Title: Re: Outdoor build of GA Kodiak, Orange, CA
Post by: json on January 23, 2020, 06:01:15 PM
FWIW.  I used the number for the long cuddy.  I had to notch the aft cuddy bulkhead lower corners for my bulkhead to sit on the stringers. 

Good to know, thanks Todd...
Title: Re: Outdoor build of GA Kodiak, Orange, CA
Post by: json on February 06, 2020, 04:25:48 PM
Making progress... I got the crash chamber done, the fore sheer deck mostly there, the anchor well deck done, the aft cuddy bulkhead blocking, and cut out the anchor well/fore cuddy bulkhead, and working on the support for the pulpit. I originally was going to not do a dropped anchor sole in the anchor area and rather make a cabinet for the rode under a flush deck but I ended up going with plans as drawn after seeing Dan's beaut and I have to say I am happy I did. It looks like it will be much more utility for working around the bow for various things and seems like it will be safer (still intending to add a rail). I also went with a full 1" thick sole in the area instead of the reenforcing member in hopes that that would be more better for the same style of winch (ez anchor puller rebel 4) that Dan used. Seems beefy.

I also finally got a roll and used actual glass tape instead of making my own and wow, what a difference working with that stuff is compared to cutting and using my own. I sure wish I had tried that earlier, would have made my work a whole lot neater and just a ton easier in general. I saved some money (probably) cutting it but the time trying to cut and then all the lose ends... ugh... oh well, live and learn. 
Title: Re: Outdoor build of GA Kodiak, Orange, CA
Post by: Djeffrey on February 06, 2020, 06:54:15 PM
Well done. Love the pulpit.
Title: Re: Outdoor build of GA Kodiak, Orange, CA
Post by: Brian.Dixon on February 06, 2020, 09:35:00 PM
Wow .... great progress and looking great!  Did you take my advice in the manual and get a Stanley brand low-angle block plane .... is that what's in the photo?  :D  I love mine .... very handy.

Title: Re: Outdoor build of GA Kodiak, Orange, CA
Post by: json on February 07, 2020, 08:08:09 AM
Wow .... great progress and looking great!  Did you take my advice in the manual and get a Stanley brand low-angle block plane .... is that what's in the photo?  :D  I love mine .... very handy.

Yup, stanley indeed... as prescribed. It's a great little plane, super useful for lots of things. I need to sharpen it actually, been a little too useful. :)
Title: Re: Outdoor build of GA Kodiak, Orange, CA
Post by: Brian.Dixon on February 07, 2020, 08:11:26 AM

I think I'd like to have a whole collection of little special purpose planes .... surprisingly useful
Title: Re: Outdoor build of GA Kodiak, Orange, CA
Post by: json on February 21, 2020, 04:31:01 PM
I got the anchor well and front end largely wrapped up (minus some more fairing), pulpit installed. I made the body of the pulpit from scrap LVL laminated together and it is super stout, doesn't budge when I do pull-ups off of it, so I am pretty happy about that. Today I took a break from work and installed the aft cuddy bulkhead and cuddy sole, which went surprisingly easy. Things are moving along, I am hoping I can get at least the cuddy wrapped up by summer before the heat really sets in so I can cover it with a separate tarp or even primer it and leave it uncovered and then uncover the project easier and not have to work under a tarp that's radiating heat like crazy.
Title: Re: Outdoor build of GA Kodiak, Orange, CA
Post by: json on February 21, 2020, 04:33:08 PM
Edit - images right side up...
Title: Re: Outdoor build of GA Kodiak, Orange, CA
Post by: Brian.Dixon on February 25, 2020, 12:13:24 PM
 Wow ... great progress!  Probably 'cuz you've got that big guy pal of yours helping out, right?  :D

You're right, the pulpit is strong.  That's a good thing ... think of bad wind and water yanking the boat around and as luck would have it, the anchor is stuck!  Things like that happen...

Brian

Title: Re: Outdoor build of GA Kodiak, Orange, CA
Post by: Todd j on February 25, 2020, 08:19:25 PM
Curious?   How do you know if your images are right side up?   When I use my phone it looks all good on my end.  I know some folks see my pics sideways.  Itís got to be annoying
Title: Re: Outdoor build of GA Kodiak, Orange, CA
Post by: Brian.Dixon on February 26, 2020, 05:17:44 AM
Curious?   How do you know if your images are right side up?   When I use my phone it looks all good on my end.  I know some folks see my pics sideways.  Itís got to be annoying

The right side up or sideways images can be what was uploaded, but it's OFTEN the forums software.  Simple Machines Forums has the odd side-effect of turning images sideways if they're too big.  I think it's trying to optimize and let you see as much as possible ... but personally, I find it annoying.  The best answer is to resize your images down before uploading.  Usually, since it's a best compromise between image quality and size, I resize so that the longest dimension is 1024 pixels, then I upload them.

Brian

Title: Re: Outdoor build of GA Kodiak, Orange, CA
Post by: Todd j on February 26, 2020, 06:41:58 AM
Maybe I can shrink them somehow In Settings
Title: Re: Outdoor build of GA Kodiak, Orange, CA
Post by: json on February 26, 2020, 11:47:02 AM
It's because there is metadata on the image taken on your phone that is not being used to display the photo properly. A photo taken on a phone (iphone for sure, not sure about other ones) have a standard way of writing the image into memory, which doesn't change when you change the orientation of your phone, and then add a metadata to the image to say which orientation it has. One way to deal with that is to open and save your phone images on a computer, because that will actually write the image data into the correct orientation as opposed to using exif data. Another way is to set up an image processing plugin on your server that essentially does that (rewrites the image data into the correct orientation) on upload if it's not already. There are plugins for simple machines forums, here is a link to a mod that will do it: https://custom.simplemachines.org/mods/index.php?mod=4087

Another option that is somewhat of a hack but also simple enough is to just take phone images in the orientation that isn't translated (ie landscape, not portrait) and upload those. They should always show up in the correct way.
Title: Re: Outdoor build of GA Kodiak, Orange, CA
Post by: Brian.Dixon on February 26, 2020, 12:59:30 PM
Thanks!  It's been a while since I messed with mods ... totally forgot about even looking :)  !

The forums are due an upgrade ... maybe before too long I'll both upgrade and install a mod for displaying images properly.

Thx

Title: Re: Outdoor build of GA Kodiak, Orange, CA
Post by: json on February 26, 2020, 01:14:26 PM
No worries Brian, good luck updating, that's never a fun task...

Todd, another thing you can do I think is edit the image and save it on your phone, so you could for instance rotate it once, save it, then rotate it back to it's original orientation and save it again and that should apply the orientation to the image, at which point when you upload it it will appear correctly for everyone and rbob will be happy.
Title: Re: Outdoor build of GA Kodiak, Orange, CA
Post by: json on March 06, 2020, 05:04:22 PM
It's been a lousy week at work so I played hooky today and did the initial glue-in of the side panels and some of the roof braces for the cuddy. Bunks are in, I just need to fair them, getting close to having the cuddy roughly wrapped up and moving on to the under deck layout and structure.
Title: Re: Outdoor build of GA Kodiak, Orange, CA
Post by: Brian.Dixon on March 07, 2020, 09:50:07 AM

Nice ... and I like the nice big access into the cuddy bunk storage :D

Brian
Title: Re: Outdoor build of GA Kodiak, Orange, CA
Post by: json on April 30, 2020, 12:31:24 PM
I went and picked up my tank this morning from Bay City Fab in Ventura. They were great to work with, knowledgeable guys, they were able to turn this tank around once I had the design finalized in about half a week. I have purposefully held off on finishing the tank coffin until I had the tank in hand so I could make sure all fit and assumptions were correct. I am a bit torn on what I am going to do with the mounting tabs. I am going to add to the tops of the stringers, but I am not sure if I should use some big burly wood screws to screw into the additional wood on top of the stringers, or the other idea I am kicking around is to make a recess under the tabs in the additional wood where I can hold a washer and nut and use some bolts. If I did the second option I could probably make sure encapsulation was solid, but it's more work and I am honestly not sure that just tapping some super thick wood screws into the additional stringer wood without breaking the stringer's encapsulation itself would be a bad option.
Title: Re: Outdoor build of GA Kodiak, Orange, CA
Post by: Rbob on April 30, 2020, 01:27:24 PM
Awesome looking tank, and the vent is far away enough from the fill so no issue there.

Mounting suggestion, Could you epoxy in place threaded studs (not wood screw type) with plenty room for epoxy on the sides of studs, like 3/8" studs with 3/4" hole filled with high density filler / epoxy mix?  Removal would be relatively easy.
Title: Re: Outdoor build of GA Kodiak, Orange, CA
Post by: json on April 30, 2020, 04:35:20 PM
Awesome looking tank, and the vent is far away enough from the fill so no issue there.

Mounting suggestion, Could you epoxy in place threaded studs (not wood screw type) with plenty room for epoxy on the sides of studs, like 3/8" studs with 3/4" hole filled with high density filler / epoxy mix?  Removal would be relatively easy.

Hmmm.. On today's edition of why didn't I think of that... :) Thanks rbob, that sounds as painless as wood screws but much less opportunity for water ingress. Removal as easy as twisting off some nuts. Awesome. I will probably go with that. What depth do you think I would need to put studs to have them securely in place? I wonder if I should put some nuts on the sunk half of them to give the epoxy even more to grab onto.
Title: Re: Outdoor build of GA Kodiak, Orange, CA
Post by: Rbob on April 30, 2020, 04:39:34 PM
Something like the Georgeon Book demonstrates:

Title: Re: Outdoor build of GA Kodiak, Orange, CA
Post by: Rbob on April 30, 2020, 04:42:19 PM
That tank is huge!  Fill it up while the gas price is cheap.
Title: Re: Outdoor build of GA Kodiak, Orange, CA
Post by: Brian.Dixon on May 01, 2020, 06:35:08 AM

I agree with the Gougeon Brother's method of bedding your fasteners (whichever you choose) in epoxy.  Their illustration does not, however, maintain the bedding around the bottom end of the threaded rod.  That's OK since the plug of epoxy above that area prevents water from getting down to the bottom end of the rod.  But I still prefer the entire threaded rod (or bolt etc) be buried in epoxy ... I like extra care for when it comes to water-proofing anything under the decks.  No big deal I guess, jus' sayin'.  Same goes for motor mount and other holes ... drill oversize, back-fill with epoxy, then drill right-sized.  The epoxy around the hole will also provide some 'meat' that helps prevent washers and they like from compressing wood and creating water-intrusion cracks around the perimeter of the holes.

Brian
Title: Re: Outdoor build of GA Kodiak, Orange, CA
Post by: json on May 01, 2020, 10:38:56 PM
Makes sense, thanks Brian. I put in an order for an assortment of 316 studs and nuts. I am thinking I am going to bed them strictly in the secondary wood above the actual stringers, so if that gets compromised then not whatever but better than the alternative... Either way, it's a way better solution than I was going to chase so thanks guys for your ideas. I will post some pics of the journey.
Title: Re: Outdoor build of GA Kodiak, Orange, CA
Post by: Brian.Dixon on May 02, 2020, 08:06:37 AM
Makes sense, thanks Brian. I put in an order for an assortment of 316 studs and nuts. I am thinking I am going to bed them strictly in the secondary wood above the actual stringers, so if that gets compromised then not whatever but better than the alternative... Either way, it's a way better solution than I was going to chase so thanks guys for your ideas. I will post some pics of the journey.

Sounds awesome!

Title: Re: Outdoor build of GA Kodiak, Orange, CA
Post by: json on May 15, 2020, 01:43:29 PM
I got a test piece of 5052 al to test clean, spray with zinc chromate, and barrier coat. There is so much different information about painting aluminum it's tough to sort it out to even get a plan. What I finally settled on was to clean the surface spotless with acetone, spray a thin coat of zinc chromate, then coat with total boat aluminum barrier coat primer. It took me a minute to work up the courage to spray the zc (apparently super toxic stuff), but I painted the test aluminum I had, and the barrier coat hasn't dried yet but it looks like it's going to work well. Once I had sprayed the zc and it dried it was pretty apparent that that stuff is not going to come off. I am going to wait for the barrier coat to fully dry and maybe scratch and beat on it a little bit to see how durable it is, but it seems like this is going to be some good insurance for the outside of the tank at the very least.

I was planning to just paint the bottom and sides, should I consider painting the top too? I couldn't think it would hurt, but maybe not worth the effort.
Title: Re: Outdoor build of GA Kodiak, Orange, CA
Post by: Brian.Dixon on May 15, 2020, 05:45:29 PM

Wow ... the paint/primer looks pretty hefty stout!   We had shaker cans of zinc chromate primer in the USAF and never once stopped to consider if it's poison or not ... I'm 60 and still alive :)

bd

Title: Re: Outdoor build of GA Kodiak, Orange, CA
Post by: json on May 15, 2020, 11:01:28 PM
Ya, thatís a good point. Idk. Itís all risk. when you were spraying it in the Air Force brian how diligent were you about surface prep? Any feedback about how that affects how your results were? The results I saw from painting that square foot make me think that surface prep isnít as big of a deal as I am making it. My thinking is get it wiped down with acetone well and then just go for it. Maybe you have some feedback in that area? As for application it doesnít seem like it takes much. Just a light spray and ready to roll. Let me know if this is inline with your experience.
Title: Re: Outdoor build of GA Kodiak, Orange, CA
Post by: Rbob on May 16, 2020, 10:04:00 AM
Json,


Just my 2c.

I have painted a few aluminum things (very few)  but I can attest to using the aluma-prep and alodine conversion coating to being the best.  I painted an aluminum drift boat for a customer over 30 years ago and it still looks new, of course it is stored inside but I used the acid cleaner and alodine conversion coat before applying epoxy primer and single stage enamel paint.

I coated my aluminum fuel tank with raptor after cleaning it with a scotchbrite and some cleaner (cant remember!) and thought it would be bullet proof, after pulling up the floor a couple years later most of it had flaked off...  It may have been the raptor liner not being able to expand/contract with the aluminum but it was a failure.  We did some repair work on my aluminum boat, sandblasted where it was pitted and my son blew it off and applied "allmetal" filler and sanded it smooth, I knew it needed to be cleaned with the aluma-prep first so I checked the adhesion with a putty knife and every patch easily came off so we re-blaste the spots and cleaned with aluma-prep before applying the filler.  You must clean the aluminum of the oxidation which is mostly invisible, rinse with water, blow it dry and immediately apply whatever product you are using without hesitation... 

If you try cleaning the backside of your test piece with aluma-prep, rinse and dry you will find the aluminum feels sticky which is clean clean clean, and paint will stick to it.


I am a fan of epoxy primer, not so much of a fan for etching primer.  For etching primer to be effective it has to be sprayed on wet or it wont etch and it runs easily, spraying it on dry does nothing for "etching".  2-part epoxy is king in my opion.  I will post a link for the aluminum cleaner, open up the technical process document below it and it will have the info you need.   The other link for the epoxy primer you will find very useful, they also have epoxy primer high build that is underwater rated polyamide cured epoxy.

https://www.aircraftspruce.com/catalog/cspages/alumiprep.php (https://www.aircraftspruce.com/catalog/cspages/alumiprep.php)

https://tamcopaint.com/collections/primers/products/dta-epoxy (https://tamcopaint.com/collections/primers/products/dta-epoxy)

Title: Re: Outdoor build of GA Kodiak, Orange, CA
Post by: json on May 17, 2020, 06:42:18 PM
Rbob - thanks a bunch for your details on your experiences. I considered the alodine and alumiprep, I think I will get some and try it on my test piece like you say.
Title: Re: Outdoor build of GA Kodiak, Orange, CA
Post by: Rbob on May 17, 2020, 09:09:34 PM
Json,

Just to make your head spin, most aluminum tanks are not treated or have any special coating and they seem to have a good reputation for longevity.  (someone may correct me)  I like the way Dan Boccia installed his aluminum tank, although I am not sure what prep he did, but applying uhmw runners so no crevice corrosion can occur and allowing water / air to flow under the tank is a first class install.  Crevice corrosion is failure waiting to happen.

There are others that have installed aluminum tanks so maybe someone will chime in and offer advice.
Title: Re: Outdoor build of GA Kodiak, Orange, CA
Post by: json on May 17, 2020, 10:48:45 PM
Ya, my head has been spinning for weeks about all of this haha. :) I love how Dan installed his tanks, and would like to do the same with mine, but the fabs wouldn't sign off engineering wise about hanging them. They also had to go and drop it in there that 5200 doesn't stick well to aluminum either, so wherever you bed in 5200 you are creating a crevice corrosion opportunity (like seating supports across the bottom). But then I wrestle with painting because unless I do it perfectly I am basically creating a giant opportunity for crevice corrosion to happen in and of itself if paint flakes or separates and moisture finds it's way in.

I made a coffin for the tank that I don't expect water to get into. I put a drain plug in the aft end that I intend to open each time I put the boat in storage or get ready to take out to check for moisture ingress and/or fuel leaks. If I do the full cover 5200 seating for bottom supports that others have mentioned (djeffrey and Dan, among others) then I think I probably won't have a problem for a long time, but who knows. I guess maybe ability to determine failure early is more insurance maybe than doing things exactly right. I just struggle with 150+ gallons of fuel on the loose potentially.

And at the end of the day, like a lot of other things on this project, I am likely just overthinking it and could really get 80% of the results in 20% of the time if I just realized it and moved forward. A boat that was 80% of perfect would be pretty good I think...
Title: Re: Outdoor build of GA Kodiak, Orange, CA
Post by: Rbob on May 18, 2020, 12:04:10 PM
Just found a great article on bonding to aluminum:



https://www.permabond.com/materials_bonded/how-to-bond-aluminum/ (https://www.permabond.com/materials_bonded/how-to-bond-aluminum/)
Title: Re: Outdoor build of GA Kodiak, Orange, CA
Post by: kennneee on May 18, 2020, 02:03:08 PM
Json- I built a tank coffin on my boat a well. Instead of a drain plug I installed a hose fitting. Attached to it is a clear piece of hose that has the other end fastened to the top of the coffin bulkhead. It acts as a sight glass so that I can see if there is any liquid in the coffin. If I want to drain it I take the top of the hose and point it down to the bilge area. That was part of my ďover thinkingĒ. Seems like a good idea.
Title: Re: Outdoor build of GA Kodiak, Orange, CA
Post by: json on May 18, 2020, 04:32:17 PM
Json- I built a tank coffin on my boat a well. Instead of a drain plug I installed a hose fitting. Attached to it is a clear piece of hose that has the other end fastened to the top of the coffin bulkhead. It acts as a sight glass so that I can see if there is any liquid in the coffin. If I want to drain it I take the top of the hose and point it down to the bilge area. That was part of my ďover thinkingĒ. Seems like a good idea.

That's a cool idea, I use sight glasses like that when I brew beer, that would be handy if it was highly visible for sure.
Title: Re: Outdoor build of GA Kodiak, Orange, CA
Post by: json on May 28, 2020, 11:03:08 PM
I have the cuddy largely wrapped up at this point, there are some polish things to do but I will get to them a little here and a little there. I am getting ready to install the tank, and have been trying to get over to home depot to get 5200 and some other odds and ends for that. I got more ply today and cut out the decking for the pilothouse section, which fits pretty well. I am thinking instead of nailers I am probably just going to try the cured bead of epoxy that was mentioned somewhere in these forums. The Gougeon brothers method for setting bolts worked awesome, I put some fibers in it for extra assurance, but I doubt that they will ever be necessary. They seem rock solid. A couple kicked off and bubbled all over the place so I had to dig out the bubbles and re-pour, which is a good brush up about using regular hardener in hot temps, that stuff kicks quick when it starts semi-hot. Good not to have a giant cup of it.
Title: Re: Outdoor build of GA Kodiak, Orange, CA
Post by: json on July 23, 2020, 02:13:19 PM
I have been wrapping up a lot of odds and ends, and things are starting to feel like they are moving again a bit. The under deck stuff seems like it takes forever and a day, but I feel fairly good about what came together.

I hemmed and hawed about installing my tank for a long bit, it's gigantic and I just kept envisioning 180 gallons of fuel on the loose.  In the end I went with the zinc chromate and primer, which seems to be pretty solid, as I have moved the tank around on things quite a bit after it was primed and none of the primer chipped off on contact points, just some minor scuffs. I put both some longitudinal supports under the bends on the bottom of the tank as well as 5 vertical supports on each side (including the end blocks) so hopefully that's sufficient to keep stress from breaking the tank from repeated flexing and warping. I ended up using 4200 to install it because I had the angle welded in to keep the tank from moving fore and aft, so the adhesive was largely a formality aside from providing a solid platform for the tank to rest on. If I ever have to replace this tank I am hoping that I am thankful for that decision.

I went the pool noodle route as well, it cost me about $130 for all the noodles to fill under the ph deck between the dollar store ones and target. Target's noodles were a better deal at $2 from the dimensions they gave online but when I showed up to buy them the $2 ones were 2 different sizes, so who knows and whatever. I think for the under cockpit part of my boat I am going to shoot for more watertight accessible storage with drain plugs, as it's more utility and probably more buoyant than pool noodles, just takes more planning and more work.

Got the pilothouse decking installed, the windshield cut and fit. I am probably going to try to fab and install the pilothouse aft bulkhead with the windshield and roof supports all at the same time so I can try to minimize heat warping.

I also got a killer super quiet pneumatic sander (aircat 6700) and a 50' hose for my shop vac so I can put the noisy part of my sander in my garage and not annoy the neighbors. I might need a bigger compressor going forward but this sander is night and day better about how low profile and light it is compared to my motorized one, which is bulky and can't fit really anywhere but is pretty good for flat or open spaces.



Title: Re: Outdoor build of GA Kodiak, Orange, CA
Post by: Brian.Dixon on July 23, 2020, 02:42:06 PM

Looks like you're making GREAT progress!   ;D ;D ;D Did you really mean 180 gallons ... or is it 108?  Where does the f'w'd end of the tank start and where's the aft end end?  It's best to keep the fuel CG near the aft pilothouse bulkhead if you can.  If you've got it forward of that, it may be a good idea to offset it by locating batteries at the transom and/or moving the CG of the outboard further back with a jack plate or motor bracket.  I can do the math if I know the size of your tank for sure, boat length (28 ft), and a measurement of where the f'w'd and aft ends of your tank is ... measured from either bow or stern as long as I know which.
Title: Re: Outdoor build of GA Kodiak, Orange, CA
Post by: json on July 23, 2020, 03:01:50 PM
Thanks Brian, it's 185 gallons, 10' long, centered 12' 3" forward of the center of the motor mount on the transom (so fore end is 17' 3" and aft end 7' 3"). My hull is actually about 29' long, I am not sure exactly anymore since I put the pulpit on, but if memory serves I was just over or right on 29', as I was able to stretch my bottom assembly and stringers for the extra foot or so when I was installing those. I did install the tank slightly forward of where I was going to install it originally because I am going to be sticking a pretty large bait tank somewhere in the cockpit (maybe over the aft end of the fuel tank or 9' or so fore of the top of the transom), so that is another 6-900 lbs that I was trying to balance into the equation.
Title: Re: Outdoor build of GA Kodiak, Orange, CA
Post by: Djeffrey on July 23, 2020, 06:31:35 PM
Really coming together. Nice work
Title: Re: Outdoor build of GA Kodiak, Orange, CA
Post by: json on August 28, 2020, 12:25:39 PM
I got my house walls in place but not finished, and tried to keep the window layout to the Prince Rupert, which other than the sloped forward windshield and the full length splash rails I am going to try to follow fairly closely. I found a company that's just up the road here that does windows (Mark Plastics), and got a quote for those which was more expensive than I had thought (probably reasonable for 14 windows) but I have seen a lot of people who swear by his product in contrast to DSG and Motion, so I might get another quote from Wynne too but will probably go with Mark. I can physically go down there and have a look and talk to him too which is nice.

I have the roof laminated up and glassed, trying to find time and help to hoist it on top of the boat to mark out the ph outline. I ended up laminating 6mm and 4mm okoume, eventually I want to put an aluminum tube helm up top so I figured I should enforce it a bit. I also wrapped some glass around a corny keg and made a cylinder for the curb visor I am going to make, that was simple enough and seems solid. I might back it with some biax, I think I have some laying around.

Title: Re: Outdoor build of GA Kodiak, Orange, CA
Post by: Todd j on August 28, 2020, 04:09:57 PM
Adding more windows probably stiffens the upper side panels a bit.  More wood left over throughout the piece.   I think you might be first to choose this option but Iím not sure.  Congratulations on the Progress.   You too seem to have passed me up!   I spend tons of time fussing/fairing where it probably really doesnít matter. 
Title: Re: Outdoor build of GA Kodiak, Orange, CA
Post by: Rbob on August 28, 2020, 04:37:41 PM
Great progress, you will be passing us all up at this rate..


Looking good!
Title: Re: Outdoor build of GA Kodiak, Orange, CA
Post by: json on August 28, 2020, 05:13:04 PM
Thanks guys. I am kind of trying to race to get the roof on and front 2/3 of the boat painted outside so I can rearrange how I have to cover and tarp for rain and sun, etc before the weather changes. I am pretty tired of working under the tarp so am looking forward to working in a semi-finished pilothouse instead that has windows that open and hopefully doesn't feel like working in an oven. There is plenty of tedious time consuming work waiting for me when I get there lol... :)
Title: Re: Outdoor build of GA Kodiak, Orange, CA
Post by: Djeffrey on August 30, 2020, 04:29:11 PM
Outstanding! Your really making progress!
Title: Re: Outdoor build of GA Kodiak, Orange, CA
Post by: Brian.Dixon on August 31, 2020, 05:37:34 AM

It's definitely challenging to be working outside, but hang in there ... you're an inspiration to others and are doing great!

Title: Re: Outdoor build of GA Kodiak, Orange, CA
Post by: Rbob on August 31, 2020, 10:18:43 AM
On the good side there is plenty of fresh air!
Title: Re: Outdoor build of GA Kodiak, Orange, CA
Post by: json on August 31, 2020, 11:34:35 AM
On the good side there is plenty of fresh air!
- there is certainly that, except under that dang tarp...

I got help from my brother in law yesterday to throw the roof blank up on top of the ph, man, pretty unruly for 2 of us but we managed. This morning I was able to cut the roof out, and now it feels almost manageable by myself, although maybe I don't want to be climbing ladders carrying a 9'x7' piece of plywood by my lonesome. Either way, flipping it back over by myself was much easier now that it's cut back. This week I am going to give way to my artsy side and have a shot at the visor.
Title: Re: Outdoor build of GA Kodiak, Orange, CA
Post by: Brian.Dixon on August 31, 2020, 12:17:36 PM

I don't know of anybody that can handle 2 to 2-1/2 sheets of plywood easily!  That's the last Big piece of wood that you have to handle...

Title: Re: Outdoor build of GA Kodiak, Orange, CA
Post by: json on September 01, 2020, 04:02:46 PM
I am making some progress on the visor. I haven't quite done the corners yet but I think they will work out fairly well, I can visualize the fit. I have the fore, aft, forward sides tacked in, maybe tonight or tomorrow I will begin the futz with the forward curves. I went a couple inches shorter than the designs call for, my ph is a few inches taller than design so rather than put a sail on the boat I just scaled back a hair.
Title: Re: Outdoor build of GA Kodiak, Orange, CA
Post by: json on September 02, 2020, 11:33:55 AM
I did the front corners yesterday evening, and I think they turned out better than I had thought they would. I cut them to just oversized, then did a butt joint with the side piece and a slightly overlapping joint with the front. I put a healthy dose of fillet epoxy mix on the backs of each one where they intersected with the wood, and this morning sanded off the front overlap. I think it turned out very good for the rough draft of this, a couple of touch ups with some microspheres and another layer of 10oz over the top and I think it will be very fair. The instructions in the manual worked pretty well.
Title: Re: Outdoor build of GA Kodiak, Orange, CA
Post by: Rbob on September 02, 2020, 02:29:42 PM
That looks great!  probably easier that what I have done.

Title: Re: Outdoor build of GA Kodiak, Orange, CA
Post by: json on September 02, 2020, 02:57:31 PM
That looks great!  probably easier that what I have done.



Idk about easier, I am not done fairing it yet :D Plus I am not sure how I am going to manage filling the inside yet.
Title: Re: Outdoor build of GA Kodiak, Orange, CA
Post by: Rbob on September 02, 2020, 05:23:44 PM
That looks great!  probably easier that what I have done.



Idk about easier, I am not done fairing it yet :D Plus I am not sure how I am going to manage filling the inside yet.

Id suggest fairing compound and a layer of glass, just need a perfect size fillet tool (make one), let fairing compound set up till almost firm and lay the glass right into it and smooth  with gloved fingers.
Title: Re: Outdoor build of GA Kodiak, Orange, CA
Post by: json on September 02, 2020, 10:51:09 PM
Id suggest fairing compound and a layer of glass, just need a perfect size fillet tool (make one), let fairing compound set up till almost firm and lay the glass right into it and smooth  with gloved fingers.

Not a bad idea, thins out toward the top, I was going to run the putty straight off the back of the faces onto the curves at least, maybe cut some slivers of ply and bed them in fairing compound, but continuing the curve with a fillet isn't a bad idea at all. The glass on top to smooth it all out is a great idea because I can't get in there with a sander at all, I just gotta figure out how to time that right with my wife telling me I need to [insert thing for little kids here]... I guess I have a time window and I just have to time it right haha .
Title: Re: Outdoor build of GA Kodiak, Orange, CA
Post by: json on September 05, 2020, 08:53:44 AM
Rbob's fillet to fill it idea was awesome, worked like a charm. Thanks Bob!

Title: Re: Outdoor build of GA Kodiak, Orange, CA
Post by: json on September 14, 2020, 10:43:14 AM
I am using the roof to test out Interlux Prime-Kote 404/414 high build primer and what I can/should utilize it for. I have a sort of informal goal to have most of the sun-exposed regions of the boat painted by the end of November so I don't need to worry as much about them, so this is a good first step in that direction. I put the first coat on last night, and purposefully did some different levels of fairing/detail work to see just what a high body primer can hide. With one coat that I haven't yet sanded I was really impressed by the coverage. It rolled out pretty easy, and was thick enough to get a good coat on everything. I didn't tip it because I intend to multi-coat and sand, so it wasn't real smooth, but it was good enough and definitely did a good job of sufficiently coating the roof. With a single coat it obscured any spots that weren't sanded perfectly smooth from bumps in the epoxy coats (I mostly just took off the high spots before priming), it did not hide the crap job I did at fairing the glass line down the middle of the roof or the couple of spots where I floated the glass off the ply with too much epoxy. It also didn't obscure any unfaired tape seams, but that was expected.
Title: Re: Outdoor build of GA Kodiak, Orange, CA
Post by: Todd j on September 14, 2020, 12:42:23 PM
Looks good to me.  Who will ever look any closer than you right now?
Title: Re: Outdoor build of GA Kodiak, Orange, CA
Post by: Brian.Dixon on September 14, 2020, 12:55:06 PM

I think it looks pretty good too.  I like the 404/414 (used to be 'Barrier Kote') ... it hides a thousand sins!

Brian
Title: Re: Outdoor build of GA Kodiak, Orange, CA
Post by: json on September 14, 2020, 03:17:28 PM
Looks good to me.  Who will ever look any closer than you right now?

Nobody who's opinion I care about unless they feel like manning a sander for a work day in my garage.  ;D
Title: Re: Outdoor build of GA Kodiak, Orange, CA
Post by: json on September 15, 2020, 09:20:32 AM
After a bit more research for the next primer installment I changed things up a bit. I was reading on the interwebs that a high build coating is supposed to be "built up", and that basically you want to roll it thin (or spray it thin) and wait for the reducer to flash off and then reapply over and over to build up a sufficient thickness to work with. So I changed a couple things up, namely I used the max amount of reducer in the paint, pouring only small amounts into the roll pan and covering the rest, and also switched from a 'hair' type of roller to a finish foam roller from home depot. What a difference. I thought coat 1 was great, coat 2 came out greater. Roller marks were reduced or eliminated, I just walked around and around the visor applying thin coats and by the time I returned again the solvent had evaporated and I could apply another coat. This is going to be much easier to sand, because this stuff is pretty rock hard, so less peaks and valleys is bueno. If things look good after sanding I will move onto alexseal's finish primer and topcoat. I ordered a newly released additive for alexseal last night (A5018) that is supposed to remove the need to tip (it causes bubbles to immediately pop and the paint to flow out like glass off the roller) so we will see, not sure if I will wait for that or forge ahead.
Title: Re: Outdoor build of GA Kodiak, Orange, CA
Post by: Brian.Dixon on September 15, 2020, 10:27:54 AM

I've heard good things about Alexseal and the no-tip finish turning out great.  I didn't know it needed a special additive though.  Looking forward to your results and pix ...

bd


Title: Re: Outdoor build of GA Kodiak, Orange, CA
Post by: json on September 15, 2020, 10:54:35 AM

I've heard good things about Alexseal and the no-tip finish turning out great.  I didn't know it needed a special additive though.  Looking forward to your results and pix ...

bd

The additive is brand new according to Andy on boatworks today, and he described it as a 'game changer' for DIY, so I figured I would give it a shot. :)
Title: Re: Outdoor build of GA Kodiak, Orange, CA
Post by: Brian.Dixon on September 15, 2020, 04:36:23 PM

I've heard good things about Alexseal and the no-tip finish turning out great.  I didn't know it needed a special additive though.  Looking forward to your results and pix ...

bd

The additive is brand new according to Andy on boatworks today, and he described it as a 'game changer' for DIY, so I figured I would give it a shot. :)

Awesome!

Title: Re: Outdoor build of GA Kodiak, Orange, CA
Post by: json on September 17, 2020, 05:12:24 PM
Some before and after pics. I learned a lot here, definitely some dos and don'ts for the rest of the boat. My roll only additive didn't come in time for this, so I went ahead and rolled with no tipping without it. It came out ok, I certainly could have benefited from bubbles just popping, because they are hard to get to go away completely with just a roller, especially when the solvent starts to flash off. I also mixed up a little too much paint, and it's expensive stuff, so I tried to get it all on the piece and ended up with a couple small sags as a result (doh). Lesson learned, just throw the extra paint in the trash. Also, my first attempt at sanding the high body primer was with a low grit, something like 60 or 80 and I didn't make much of a dent (that stuff is hard as rocks). I moved to 220 and it sanded much easier, and man, it gets smooth. Next time I get into some priming I am going to use a guide coat I think to make sure I get it super smooth, because small flaws do project quite a bit into the finish, and also if it's got valleys and whatnot you can't really get at it with a sander so well for things like finish primer which is really really thin. Either way, good to know what level of fairing is going to be required moving forward. Bad to know how much work that's gonna take lol.

I think the roof turned out pretty good, maybe a 3ft - 5ft finish, hopefully I can get it installed this weekend and get moving on the next chapter.
Title: Re: Outdoor build of GA Kodiak, Orange, CA
Post by: Brian.Dixon on September 18, 2020, 06:09:08 AM

I think it's turning out fantastic.  The finish looks perfect from here!

bd

Title: Re: Outdoor build of GA Kodiak, Orange, CA
Post by: Djeffrey on September 18, 2020, 07:55:56 AM
I used alexseal and love it. Bubbles are an issue if you donít thin properly. Would love to hear more about this new additive.
Title: Re: Outdoor build of GA Kodiak, Orange, CA
Post by: json on September 18, 2020, 09:03:12 AM
I used alexseal and love it. Bubbles are an issue if you donít thin properly. Would love to hear more about this new additive.

I couldn't find it on Alexseal's website, but here is a link for it on the store I bought it and the rest of my paint from:

https://www.goldcoastmarine.com/products-details/813/alexseal-a5018-topcoat-501-roll-additive.html

And here is the boatworks today video where I saw it:

https://www.boatworkstoday.com/videos/alexseal-changing-the-game-for-diy-boat-painting/

Neither of them have that much information but I think Andy on boatworks today is going to be getting some on that hull in the video pretty soon if he hasn't already, I haven't looked. I think my shipment should be here any time, but I don't really have anything to paint any time soon so... science is going to have to wait haha. I did talk to the rep at gold coast marine and he said from what he has heard it's pretty amazing stuff and has been selling like crazy.

Title: Re: Outdoor build of GA Kodiak, Orange, CA
Post by: Rbob on September 23, 2020, 09:19:03 AM
Wow, painted and looking amazing!  I need to check out Alexseal paint all I hear is good stuff about it.
Title: Re: Outdoor build of GA Kodiak, Orange, CA
Post by: json on September 24, 2020, 02:23:21 PM
Wow, painted and looking amazing!  I need to check out Alexseal paint all I hear is good stuff about it.

I have been dealing with Luke down at Gold Coast Marine in Ft. Lauderdale (actually ordering online and then they call you, their website is pretty hokey). He has been helpful and they have been reliable getting my supplies to me in a pretty timely manner.

Cap's on! I got my brother to come by this morning to help me put the roof on, looks pretty awesome. I have also been working on the bulwarks, I used 12mm aquatek glassed 10oz on the inside, and was able to make the bends, although it was a struggle. I also (re)found a pretty giant flat spot on the port side of the hull that I am going to have to fair in, the benefit (or drawback depending on how you look at it) of using 12mm is it bends fair, so my sheer gets put under a microscope now. I have a longboard on the way haha. At least the rest of it looks pretty close.

To install the roof, we just lined it all up, made some alignment marks, then propped it up on a couple scraps of 4x4 and whatnot, and then spread the glue and lowered it down and made final tweeks. Went really easy. I also put a #6 x 1 1/4" 316 fastener into the longitudinal supports 1/3 of the way down each one (total of 4) and used microfibers so hopefully that will keep it together when I am walking up there.
Title: Re: Outdoor build of GA Kodiak, Orange, CA
Post by: Todd j on September 24, 2020, 05:18:16 PM
Awesome!
Title: Re: Outdoor build of GA Kodiak, Orange, CA
Post by: jklistof on September 26, 2020, 08:42:58 PM
Nice
Title: Re: Outdoor build of GA Kodiak, Orange, CA
Post by: Grady300 on September 28, 2020, 12:28:08 PM
Great looking job on your roof!!!!
Title: Re: Outdoor build of GA Kodiak, Orange, CA
Post by: json on October 12, 2020, 11:06:01 PM
I test fit some cockpit sole cutouts that I have been working on tonight. It feels good to have a surface to walk on that's above the stringers. I was also looking at cockpit size vs bait tank, I am thinking 80 gallon double from pacific edge is going to fit the bill. I originally was looking at 120 gallons but it's just kind of obnoxiously big and 10 scoops is a bit of a stretch, plus the extra 350 lb+ is also a lot. Either way there is still a ton to do under the deck but good to see the end for a minute to get a feel for what's to come.
Title: Re: Outdoor build of GA Kodiak, Orange, CA
Post by: Todd j on October 13, 2020, 07:29:24 AM
Itís pretty awesome not to have to step over the stringers every in and out.  My deck is still loose with tons of stuff to do under,  but itís easy to pull them out
Title: Re: Outdoor build of GA Kodiak, Orange, CA
Post by: json on October 13, 2020, 07:54:28 AM
Itís pretty awesome not to have to step over the stringers every in and out.  My deck is still loose with tons of stuff to do under,  but itís easy to pull them out

Ya, no doubt. Out of sight, out of mind. :) I am going to try to not forget that there is a bunch of stuff to do under there...
Title: Re: Outdoor build of GA Kodiak, Orange, CA
Post by: json on October 19, 2020, 05:16:02 PM
I have been back in fairing never never land, there was a lot of it after adding bulwarks. The starboard one is not quite done, but the port one is glassed and faired. I am getting close to being ready to prime and paint the port side which is exciting. I added a lot of work for myself because I didn't scarf the bulwarks or use backing on the butt joint, so as could be expected it stuck out like a sore thumb (or maybe more appropriately looked like a broken thumb). I lined them up as best I could tho and glued them, and then glassed the outside and just sanded and filled until it looked pretty fair. Note to self - take the extra hour or 2 next time and just scarf the pieces... I also had a giant flat spot on the port side that took me quite a few passes to get filled in. I went over it all with some cloth and once it's primed no one will be the wiser. In between that torture I have been working on finishing up under the cockpit sole, I keep going back and forth on what I want to do there but I think I have settled on leaving a lot of unutilized space for now and potentially coming back to use it later. I am going to build in a pretty large fish/ice box between the stringers in front of the bilge and also a small sea chest for my thru-hulls, but other than that I am just going to put in some glass tube in the limbers that I can put plugs in so that I have some (hopeful) protection in the event that I get holed. I also have the cockpit coaming cut out and ready to install so with all of that I can almost finally see what this thing is going to look like, which feels pretty good.
Title: Re: Outdoor build of GA Kodiak, Orange, CA
Post by: json on October 19, 2020, 05:27:27 PM
Also something that I was meaning to throw in here for other's benefit, I got some talc to add to fairing mixes after doing some research, and it seems like it really helps it come off the knife smoother and stick better to the boat rather than just want to peel off. My mix now is a bit of cabosil, about twice as much talc, and then thicken with Q cells or microspheres (I bought 10 lbs of the 3m ones), and it feels pretty close to system three's kwikfair. It does apparently soak up water which isn't great but... so does plywood, so as long as I encapsulate it the same I am not really worried about it. It also sands like a dream.
Title: Re: Outdoor build of GA Kodiak, Orange, CA
Post by: WCR247 on October 19, 2020, 08:41:21 PM
That last picture really shows how big the boat is. Looks amazing though.
Title: Re: Outdoor build of GA Kodiak, Orange, CA
Post by: Brian.Dixon on October 20, 2020, 06:07:00 AM
Also something that I was meaning to throw in here for other's benefit, I got some talc to add to fairing mixes after doing some research, and it seems like it really helps it come off the knife smoother and stick better to the boat rather than just want to peel off. My mix now is a bit of cabosil, about twice as much talc, and then thicken with Q cells or microspheres (I bought 10 lbs of the 3m ones), and it feels pretty close to system three's kwikfair. It does apparently soak up water which isn't great but... so does plywood, so as long as I encapsulate it the same I am not really worried about it. It also sands like a dream.

True ... use what you want in your fairing mix.  WEST, I believe, even sells paper fiber (403 Microfiber) ... which soaks up water too.  Just encapsulate in epoxy and no problem ...

Thanks for the good info on the talc ... :D

bd

Title: Re: Outdoor build of GA Kodiak, Orange, CA
Post by: Djeffrey on October 20, 2020, 07:27:11 AM
Looking fantastic, itís going to be an awesome looking boat
Title: Re: Outdoor build of GA Kodiak, Orange, CA
Post by: Grady300 on October 20, 2020, 12:05:58 PM
I really like the overall look of your wheelhouse and how the bulwark blends in
Title: Re: Outdoor build of GA Kodiak, Orange, CA
Post by: json on October 20, 2020, 01:01:17 PM
I really like the overall look of your wheelhouse and how the bulwark blends in

Thanks Chuck, it's certainly turning out as good as I could have hoped for. Most of the design considerations are the stock PR ones from the manual, with the exception of some small tweaks to measurements and the forward leaning windshield instead of the back leaning. Otherwise what Brian spells out has turned out quite well, I am pretty stoked.
Title: Re: Outdoor build of GA Kodiak, Orange, CA
Post by: Brian.Dixon on October 20, 2020, 04:45:20 PM
I really like the overall look of your wheelhouse and how the bulwark blends in

Thanks Chuck, it's certainly turning out as good as I could have hoped for. Most of the design considerations are the stock PR ones from the manual, with the exception of some small tweaks to measurements and the forward leaning windshield instead of the back leaning. Otherwise what Brian spells out has turned out quite well, I am pretty stoked.

I really like how it's turning out too ... great aesthetics, great balance between bulwark versus the house visor etc.  It's gonna be a great boat!

Brian
Title: Re: Outdoor build of GA Kodiak, Orange, CA
Post by: WCR247 on October 23, 2020, 02:04:43 AM
I really like the overall look of your wheelhouse and how the bulwark blends in

Thanks Chuck, it's certainly turning out as good as I could have hoped for. Most of the design considerations are the stock PR ones from the manual, with the exception of some small tweaks to measurements and the forward leaning windshield instead of the back leaning. Otherwise what Brian spells out has turned out quite well, I am pretty stoked.

I really like how it's turning out too ... great aesthetics, great balance between bulwark versus the house visor etc.  It's gonna be a great boat!

Brian

Aside from aesthetics, is there an advantage/purpose for the bulwark vs. no bulwark?
Title: Re: Outdoor build of GA Kodiak, Orange, CA
Post by: Brian.Dixon on October 23, 2020, 06:42:30 AM
Aside from aesthetics, is there an advantage/purpose for the bulwark vs. no bulwark?

Great question!

 The most seaworthy version of the Great Alaskan and/or the Kodiak, have the bulwark and high coaming around the cockpit (running just past the f'w'd part of the dry well).  Why?  More degrees of heel before water can enter the boat.  Or, another way to look at it is that water must rise higher on the side of the hull before water can enter the boat.  Think of a boat adrift and fishing, rolling hard to one side due to steep swells, and then a bigger than average wave strikes the boat on the low side ...

  Since this boat is designed for camping and fishing, it is expected that it'll see a lot of slow operation and/or just plain being adrift out on the big water.  This is why the boat has flared sides that help it bob up and over waves as they approach from most any direction.  Bulwarks help keep waves and water off the forward 2/3rds of the hull, and the coaming around the cockpit guide any such water draining aft over the side or at least into the scupper-drained dry well.  The bulwark also makes it safer to walk along the sheer deck to get forward for whatever reason... anyone who's done this on a slippery boat in a steep and unpredictable chop will appreciate this.  If you don't prefer the bulwark, then you could instead put a minor toe rail along the outer edge of the sheer just by trimming your side panels 3/4" high or so when you perform that part of the build (fillet and round it, then glass right over it when you glass the sheer deck to the sides).

  The only real downside to the coaming and bulwark is the extra time (and a minor cost) that it takes to add them to the boat ... no big deal in the long run.  In any case, lots of trade-offs ... you have to think about what you want to use your boat for and in what conditions, then make your decisions.  Style and the 'look' of the boat is a big deal.  Having handrails f'w'd have to be fit inside the bulwark and can make the walking-room on the sheer deck slightly less etc.

Brian
Title: Re: Outdoor build of GA Kodiak, Orange, CA
Post by: Grady300 on October 24, 2020, 04:45:20 PM
Aside from aesthetics, is there an advantage/purpose for the bulwark vs. no bulwark?
  The only real downside to the coaming and bulwark is the extra time (and a minor cost) that it takes to add them to the boat ... no big deal in the long run.  In any case, lots of trade-offs ... you have to think about what you want to use your boat for and in what conditions, then make your decisions.  Style and the 'look' of the boat is a big deal.  Having handrails f'w'd have to be fit inside the bulwark and can make the walking-room on the sheer deck slightly less etc.

Brian
I was thinking for the handrail issue with the bulwark. I might add a 3/4"x 6"+- thick piece on the outside where the wheelhouse starts run it to the bow and have it line up with the lower edge of the rub rail extending to the stern. Then maybe add a 3/4" x 2" to the inside of the bulwark. That would give me about 1 7/8" flat to secure my railing base plates. probably have to have them custom made to work. 
Title: Re: Outdoor build of GA Kodiak, Orange, CA
Post by: WCR247 on October 26, 2020, 04:57:37 AM
Aside from aesthetics, is there an advantage/purpose for the bulwark vs. no bulwark?

Great question!

 The most seaworthy version of the Great Alaskan and/or the Kodiak, have the bulwark and high coaming around the cockpit (running just past the f'w'd part of the dry well).  Why?  More degrees of heel before water can enter the boat.  Or, another way to look at it is that water must rise higher on the side of the hull before water can enter the boat.  Think of a boat adrift and fishing, rolling hard to one side due to steep swells, and then a bigger than average wave strikes the boat on the low side ...

  Since this boat is designed for camping and fishing, it is expected that it'll see a lot of slow operation and/or just plain being adrift out on the big water.  This is why the boat has flared sides that help it bob up and over waves as they approach from most any direction.  Bulwarks help keep waves and water off the forward 2/3rds of the hull, and the coaming around the cockpit guide any such water draining aft over the side or at least into the scupper-drained dry well.  The bulwark also makes it safer to walk along the sheer deck to get forward for whatever reason... anyone who's done this on a slippery boat in a steep and unpredictable chop will appreciate this.  If you don't prefer the bulwark, then you could instead put a minor toe rail along the outer edge of the sheer just by trimming your side panels 3/4" high or so when you perform that part of the build (fillet and round it, then glass right over it when you glass the sheer deck to the sides).

  The only real downside to the coaming and bulwark is the extra time (and a minor cost) that it takes to add them to the boat ... no big deal in the long run.  In any case, lots of trade-offs ... you have to think about what you want to use your boat for and in what conditions, then make your decisions.  Style and the 'look' of the boat is a big deal.  Having handrails f'w'd have to be fit inside the bulwark and can make the walking-room on the sheer deck slightly less etc.

Brian
Thanks Brian. That was a great explanation. I like the idea of it. Specially the extended version Grady300 made that keeps the same smooth sheer angle. They aren't popular on the gulf coast of Florida. Mostly just nice giant bow rails.
Title: Re: Outdoor build of GA Kodiak, Orange, CA
Post by: json on November 13, 2020, 11:07:11 PM
Primed the port side, 2 passes with interlux primekote 404/414 - going to sand and hopefully paint this week. Looking more boatier every day...
Title: Re: Outdoor build of GA Kodiak, Orange, CA
Post by: Grady300 on November 14, 2020, 07:33:45 AM
Looking great! Love to see a picture what your doing on the stern!
Title: Re: Outdoor build of GA Kodiak, Orange, CA
Post by: Brian.Dixon on November 14, 2020, 09:30:29 AM

So what's your feedback on the 404/414?  Roll and tip or spray?  Does it hide a thousand sins as advertised?

Title: Re: Outdoor build of GA Kodiak, Orange, CA
Post by: Djeffrey on November 14, 2020, 10:51:24 AM
Sweet
Title: Re: Outdoor build of GA Kodiak, Orange, CA
Post by: json on November 14, 2020, 11:36:55 AM
Looking great! Love to see a picture what your doing on the stern!

I haven't got much done there, I am sort of leaving that part until last so that I can step in and out easier. That said, I am planning on doing a euro-style stern with a curved transom and flat platform with a bomar aluminum hatch for accessing the bilge and lower mounts on that platform. I might make a small drywell like you outlined in your transom mock up but haven't really decided yet. I did put some pieces of ply to make a flat mount for the motor/bracket but that's about as far as I have made it. I am also going to get a bob's 6" bracket I think and install that so that it's easier to adjust the height of my motor and also so I can wrap up and paint the transom and make it easier when I get my outboard to mount it.
Title: Re: Outdoor build of GA Kodiak, Orange, CA
Post by: json on November 14, 2020, 11:53:55 AM

So what's your feedback on the 404/414?  Roll and tip or spray?  Does it hide a thousand sins as advertised?

I rolled it, no tip, using the fine foam rollers from home depot, which apply it pretty evenly. I did 2 coats. It does hide a thousand sins, but it also shows all the ones that it doesn't hide lol. It sands super smooth. I am using a guide coat which is really helping me get it dialed in. It just takes fooooooooorever... I didn't do a great job fairing this tape seam but I was able to sand it out fairly well. So it's kind of nice for someone who is not very good at fairing like myself. :) That said, I don't think I would spray it unless I was very very confident in my safety equipment. It's extremely noxious stuff, stinks all to high hell. I am sure my neighbors love me right now. At least the lady who had an issue with me sanding moved. :D
Title: Re: Outdoor build of GA Kodiak, Orange, CA
Post by: Brian.Dixon on November 14, 2020, 06:27:43 PM

It looks like it's got plenty of body ... if it sands smooth easily, then it's great stuff...

Title: Re: Outdoor build of GA Kodiak, Orange, CA
Post by: json on December 13, 2020, 10:57:42 PM
A month later and no paint. Lots of this and that though. My main focus has been on the stuff under the cockpit sole, and I think I am largely wrapping that up. I have been slowly studying and buying the parts for my bait system plus my transducer, and fitting them on arrival. I got both of the thru hulls cut and treated, and have been running wiring to all of that as well. I am pretty happy with how my below deck layout has progressed, although hindsight has definitely shown that this is my first shot at this. I originally wanted to run my fuel fill to the aft end, so I had my tank fab'd for all the access through the rear. But once I thought about it for a while I didn't want to dump fuel on the ramp on a steep pull or drop, since the tank is 10 feet long and the top end could be above where the fill lies, so I decided to run it to the port side. Which means the hose runs a bit wompy and meanders through other things. Oh well. I also thought that my vents were 1/2" hose, and I bought 25' of A1-15 hose for it, but then learned it was 5/8" ID when I tried to run it. So if anyone is looking for any fuel hose for cheap(er) hit me up, I have an extra 25' of it. Either way, I think I have my bait system dialed in, and running electrical makes this project start to feel more boaty than woodie.
Title: Re: Outdoor build of GA Kodiak, Orange, CA
Post by: Rbob on December 14, 2020, 07:47:37 AM
You are making good progress, not that fun working with head down in a hole, my knees are sore thinking about it.

Title: Re: Outdoor build of GA Kodiak, Orange, CA
Post by: json on February 04, 2021, 02:39:41 PM
My birthday came early, hopefully with this in hand my motivation will be through the roof... Now I gotta figure out how the hell I am going to get this out of the back of my truck. I suppose that's not a bad problem to have. :)

Title: Re: Outdoor build of GA Kodiak, Orange, CA
Post by: Brian.Dixon on February 04, 2021, 02:54:26 PM

It's not hard to get out ... just roll it off the end of the tailgate!  :D :D

Title: Re: Outdoor build of GA Kodiak, Orange, CA
Post by: Grady300 on February 04, 2021, 04:11:32 PM
300 HP She is going to be a screamer!!!! Sweet
Title: Re: Outdoor build of GA Kodiak, Orange, CA
Post by: Rbob on February 04, 2021, 04:16:31 PM
Suffering from motor envy! wow thats a big one!
Title: Re: Outdoor build of GA Kodiak, Orange, CA
Post by: Brian.Dixon on February 04, 2021, 04:33:24 PM
Suffering from motor envy!  Wow that's a big one!!

...Reminds me of the manager in The Office, but I won't mention that :)

Title: Re: Outdoor build of GA Kodiak, Orange, CA
Post by: json on February 04, 2021, 05:18:35 PM
Ha... my son said the same thing when he got home from school right now... "Wow, that's a big one!"
Title: Re: Outdoor build of GA Kodiak, Orange, CA
Post by: json on February 05, 2021, 08:51:22 AM
I also got some paint on the boat before I picked up this motor, and wow, when applied right this alexseal paint is freaking amazing. Watching Andy and his boatworks today episodes on applying it helped a lot, I still put it on heavy in spots (lesson learned) but where I put it on correct thickness and with enough thinner it turned to glass, and the bubble popping additive is absolutely amazing too. Going to go for the full gusto and sand each coat and apply super thin, at least 3 coats total.
Title: Re: Outdoor build of GA Kodiak, Orange, CA
Post by: Rbob on February 09, 2021, 01:01:23 PM
Alexseal paint looks amazing, cant wait to see more.
Title: Re: Outdoor build of GA Kodiak, Orange, CA
Post by: Grady300 on February 11, 2021, 12:09:48 PM
WOW, Nice paint job
Title: Re: Outdoor build of GA Kodiak, Orange, CA
Post by: MarkB on February 12, 2021, 09:13:00 AM
That Alexseal is nice.  I used Awlgrip on my Widebody, but if I build another boat I'll definitely be using Alexseal - it looks awesome.  That's cool that you don't have to tip it off.
Title: Re: Outdoor build of GA Kodiak, Orange, CA
Post by: json on March 13, 2021, 05:00:36 PM
More alexseal pics... I think I am getting the hang of it. While I was sanding today I was remembering back to when I started this project and was like 'there is a lot of sanding, how much sanding could that really be?'... Welcome to reality me. :)



Title: Re: Outdoor build of GA Kodiak, Orange, CA
Post by: Todd j on March 13, 2021, 09:43:25 PM
Looks awesome
Title: Re: Outdoor build of GA Kodiak, Orange, CA
Post by: Brian.Dixon on March 14, 2021, 11:37:43 AM

Wow! You're doing an amazing job on the paint job!  AND you're building outdoors ... a real inspiration to others!

Title: Re: Outdoor build of GA Kodiak, Orange, CA
Post by: Djeffrey on March 14, 2021, 01:53:02 PM
Outstanding, good choice of paint. What color? Canít tell if itís white or grey
Title: Re: Outdoor build of GA Kodiak, Orange, CA
Post by: json on March 14, 2021, 05:36:33 PM
Outstanding, good choice of paint. What color? Canít tell if itís white or grey

It's kingston gray. I went back and forth on flashy or neutral, ended going with the neutral option. Maybe the next boat I build will get the fighting lady yellow paint. :) I am going to put a bootstripe on it though, not sure if just white or a combination of capri blue and white, still sorting that out.
Title: Re: Outdoor build of GA Kodiak, Orange, CA
Post by: Rbob on March 15, 2021, 08:42:06 AM
Your paintwork looks amazing!  Definitely an inspiration. 

Title: Re: Outdoor build of GA Kodiak, Orange, CA
Post by: Scott L on March 22, 2021, 06:45:13 PM
Thanks, still trying to get the hang of this site.
Title: Re: Outdoor build of GA Kodiak, Orange, CA
Post by: json on April 13, 2021, 11:27:04 AM
Been a minute since I posted an update here. I have been giving the painting a break, waiting for the wind to back off some. In the meantime I have been tying up a lot of loose ends.

I have been working some on the pilothouse, trying to make a dent before the heat becomes oppressive. Working out ergonomics and stuff is a bit tricky, I think what I came up with is going to work pretty well though. It seems like there is always something I ordered that I am waiting to arrive so that I can do a measurement to make sure I don't have to backtrack, so slow going.

I am also working to try to wrap up the under cockpit sole stuff, which seems endless. I have a list of about 15 things that need to get finished before I can glue in the sole, so that will be a big milestone when it happens.

I started my window order, going with Wynne (dealt with Cory, nice guy). They were almost half the cost of a local guy here who I was thinking to go with, who apparently didn't want my business or something (flaky/too busy?), so kind of glad that that worked out to make me explore other options. ETA on windows is 8 weeks.

My trailer is ready, but when the builder was delivering out here a couple weeks ago I was on a trip out at the colorado river, and a miscommunication led to him not bringing it out here. Sounds like it's another month out until they are delivering out here again, which is ok but also kind of holding me up. Oh well, how it goes sometimes I guess.
Title: Re: Outdoor build of GA Kodiak, Orange, CA
Post by: Brian.Dixon on April 13, 2021, 01:57:02 PM

Nice seat... say, is that a 4" jack plate?  Got a link for that?  It looks really nice and compact, light weight.

Title: Re: Outdoor build of GA Kodiak, Orange, CA
Post by: json on April 13, 2021, 02:03:57 PM

Nice seat... say, is that a 4" jack plate?  Got a link for that?  It looks really nice and compact, light weight.



It is, it's made by bob's machine shop... 4", manual but upgradeable to hydraulic later if I choose to go down that road.

https://bobsmachine.com/product/4-heavy-duty-setback-versa-series-jack-plate-300-hp-max/
Title: Re: Outdoor build of GA Kodiak, Orange, CA
Post by: Brian.Dixon on April 13, 2021, 04:54:10 PM

The bracket looks nice.  Just make sure they'll let you return it if the steering cylinder doesn't marry with it well.  That's what happened to me.
Title: Re: Outdoor build of GA Kodiak, Orange, CA
Post by: Todd j on April 13, 2021, 10:55:31 PM
Thatís a nice piece of machinery!
How wide is it?   I cannot tell by Bobís specs in the link.  I was looking at the same one. 
Title: Re: Outdoor build of GA Kodiak, Orange, CA
Post by: json on April 14, 2021, 08:11:29 AM
Thatís a nice piece of machinery!
How wide is it?   I cannot tell by Bobís specs in the link.  I was looking at the same one. 

The piece that's up against the transom is a hair under 16 3/4", the widest point further aft is 18 1/4". Something that I wasn't aware of that I hope works ok but might not with where I drilled my holes - the engine mounting holes are higher on the jack plate than the transom holes, so if you have holes drilled to put your outboard on your transom, and bolt this jack plate straight in, the centerline through the prop is going to be about an inch and a half to 2 inches higher using the lowest point on the jack plate than it was without the jack plate. I think I went low enough with my bolts to compensate, but I would have liked some play both down and up, and I think right now I am 25" from the top edge of the plate to the bottom, so pretty much only have up to go. It's a nice plate though, super solid, nice to have the option to put a lift in it later if I want.   
Title: Re: Outdoor build of GA Kodiak, Orange, CA
Post by: Todd j on April 14, 2021, 08:35:28 AM
Thank you.   I was having a minor panic attach looking at the dims on the website.  As far as the mounting holes go.   It is my understanding that the jack plate lives in the same holes on the transom that the OB lives in.  So it must  be okay as you describe it. 
 I think Brian has remarked that the further off the transom the water rises above the boat bottom.  Maybe not 1 1/2Ē in 4Ē.  Anyway Iím hoping you will want to come up with engine instead of down.  I will wait to drill my holes!
   How much range up and down do you have?
Title: Re: Outdoor build of GA Kodiak, Orange, CA
Post by: json on April 14, 2021, 08:50:08 AM
I think it has better than 6" of range (up only), I am not sure I would want to operate at the top of that though. It's probably fine but seems like the amount of plate still in the channels would be getting kind of skinny at the upper end of that, and having 300hp of force pushing on the top of the plate acting like a lever just seems like it could break something with years of abuse. Once I get my trailer in hand I will probably put the motor on pretty soon after that, I can put some more specific pics of how the prop lines up using the bracket and in what relationship to the holes. I think Dan B. bought and returned a jack plate due to the same reason if memory serves...
Title: Re: Outdoor build of GA Kodiak, Orange, CA
Post by: Todd j on April 14, 2021, 02:02:50 PM
Thanks for the feed back
Title: Re: Outdoor build of GA Kodiak, Orange, CA
Post by: json on May 10, 2021, 03:34:23 PM
Been working on my door, it's pretty much roughed out and ready to finish. VG fir is great stuff, that's the first time I have played with it. Pretty happy with how my door turned out. It seems pretty solid.

I also got to play with soft sand today, medium grade, and I am pretty pleased with how it turned out (without it being dry yet). The texture seems about perfect, I was kind of worried that the medium wouldn't have enough grit. But it certainly looks like it's going to to the job pretty well, so I might have to invest in a big ole bucket of it because there are going to be a lot of things I am going to want to put that on.

Still painting too, one more time sanding the sb side and then final coat and the exterior should be pretty well and done, minus the boot stripe. I went salmon fishing on a wood boat out of half moon bay last week (the hulicat) and sort of paid attention to the fit and finish on that boat, and came to the conclusion that I am kind of obsessing a bit too much over the fit and finish of mine. Wood boats are supposed to have character right? :) Anyways, I think it will look good but it certainly made me feel better about the blemishes and flaws that I didn't fix... White paint so far has also been much harder to use, I tend to want to get full coverage so I put it on heavy, then have to sand out a bunch of runs and sags. It's also extremely hard to see how the coat is going on (missed spots or heavy spots) because it all just looks white when it is bright out...
Title: Re: Outdoor build of GA Kodiak, Orange, CA
Post by: Todd j on May 10, 2021, 05:36:25 PM
sure is looking good!  I am even fairing the cockpit.  Talk about obsessing?!  But I want it to be as near perfect as I can get it.  I dont have motors or a trailer yet so no rush here.
Title: Re: Outdoor build of GA Kodiak, Orange, CA
Post by: json on May 11, 2021, 08:03:38 AM
sure is looking good!  I am even fairing the cockpit.  Talk about obsessing?!  But I want it to be as near perfect as I can get it.  I dont have motors or a trailer yet so no rush here.

The obsession is real!
Title: Re: Outdoor build of GA Kodiak, Orange, CA
Post by: Grady300 on May 11, 2021, 01:38:18 PM
Yep, I have been told to STOP obsessing so much over the finish. The way I see it is you can spend a little more time and it will be beautiful forever or leave it and the blemish will be there forever. That said I will have a few blemishes forever :)
Your boat is looking fantastic!!!!
Title: Re: Outdoor build of GA Kodiak, Orange, CA
Post by: Brian.Dixon on May 11, 2021, 04:23:18 PM
Hey ... If you really want a yacht finish, save yourself some work and ONLY make it pretty on the outside of the hull from the waterline to the gunnels, and on the outside faces of the pilothouse and cuddy side panels ... nobody sees or notices anything else! 

Title: Re: Outdoor build of GA Kodiak, Orange, CA
Post by: Grady300 on May 11, 2021, 10:11:31 PM
LOL ;D
Title: Re: Outdoor build of GA Kodiak, Orange, CA
Post by: Djeffrey on May 12, 2021, 08:08:38 AM
Do you think you will make the trip to port Townsend? I sure would like to see your boat?
Title: Re: Outdoor build of GA Kodiak, Orange, CA
Post by: Grady300 on May 12, 2021, 08:30:55 AM
Do you think you will make the trip to port Townsend? I sure would like to see your boat?
I second that request!!!!!
Title: Re: Outdoor build of GA Kodiak, Orange, CA
Post by: json on May 12, 2021, 10:05:28 AM
Do you think you will make the trip to port Townsend? I sure would like to see your boat?

As of now I am accepted for a spot on the water... The stars kind of need to align though, there are a number of things I need to figure out to make it so. I have most of the family commitment things worked out but need to kind of get my butt in gear and finish among other logistical things like registration and wide load permits, but abandoning perfection is probably a great first step. :) Really hoping to see you all there.
Title: Re: Outdoor build of GA Kodiak, Orange, CA
Post by: Brian.Dixon on May 12, 2021, 02:39:40 PM
Do you think you will make the trip to port Townsend? I sure would like to see your boat?

As of now I am accepted for a spot on the water... The stars kind of need to align though, there are a number of things I need to figure out to make it so. I have most of the family commitment things worked out but need to kind of get my butt in gear and finish among other logistical things like registration and wide load permits, but abandoning perfection is probably a great first step. :) Really hoping to see you all there.

It's gonna be fun!

Title: Re: Outdoor build of GA Kodiak, Orange, CA
Post by: json on May 26, 2021, 11:08:03 PM
Big step for me tonight, I finally buttoned down my cockpit sole. What a show that was... I started putting fillet mix out with a plastic bag and then realized very quickly that I was going to run out of wood flour. Luckily I had a big box of fumed silica, which I used a lot of and accented with what wood flour I had left. The resulting mix didn't stand up tall quite as great (didn't fill gaps as well) and I didn't get it quite thick enough, but had a good amount of squeeze out in a lot of areas when I put the deck down so I think I got it good enough.

I have also been potting my deck hardware a bit using rbob's article that he shared for a guide. It's been tedious but I think it will be worth it. The result is pretty bulletproof.
Title: Re: Outdoor build of GA Kodiak, Orange, CA
Post by: Brian.Dixon on May 27, 2021, 06:53:33 AM

Wow ... I hate running out of something in the second that I need it!  Glad your quick thinking got you through!  The deck looks great, BTW ... you'll really enjoy walking on a flat surface now!
Title: Re: Outdoor build of GA Kodiak, Orange, CA
Post by: json on May 27, 2021, 08:05:42 AM

Wow ... I hate running out of something in the second that I need it!  Glad your quick thinking got you through!  The deck looks great, BTW ... you'll really enjoy walking on a flat surface now!


It was definitely a bit of a moment of panic, 'um, sooooo, should I scrape this big ole cup of fillet mix up then and throw it in the trash and break out the scraper tomorrow?'. The high cabosil mix actually seemed like it had enough body, I was mainly worried that if I walked on it at all before it was dried it would squeeze it all out and leave pockets. Worked out though, I just looked and everything seems solid. Hope I didn't forget anything! If I did it's going above decks now...
Title: Re: Outdoor build of GA Kodiak, Orange, CA
Post by: json on June 25, 2021, 11:01:31 AM
I picked up my trailer today, and got my windows a couple days ago from Wynne. Both did a fantastic job, top notch workmanship, I am very happy all around. Lots of work to do just getting all of this stuff installed, but once the boat is on the trailer I can start working on installing my motor, so fun times ahead. The trailer weighs 950 lbs, which is less than I thought it would (and it's 7500 lbs gross, not 7000 like I previously thought).
Title: Re: Outdoor build of GA Kodiak, Orange, CA
Post by: Rbob on June 25, 2021, 11:16:07 AM
Awesome!
Title: Re: Outdoor build of GA Kodiak, Orange, CA
Post by: Grady300 on June 25, 2021, 03:16:48 PM
GOOD LOOKING TRAILER!!!!
Title: Re: Outdoor build of GA Kodiak, Orange, CA
Post by: json on June 28, 2021, 03:23:58 PM
New home for my floaty toy. For those who are about to do this, get the tongue as high as you can while you are loading it. I have a big dip that made the rear of the trailer stick up, which really scratched the crap out of the bottom. I will get in there and fix it but... Not real great anyways. It also caused the hdpe on the bunks to break free and start to slide, so I probably scratched the bottom more as a result. Regardless, the end result is the same. No one lost an arm and the boat is ready for the next steps so all in all it was a good day.

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=y8Yxbn2_7hU
Title: Re: Outdoor build of GA Kodiak, Orange, CA
Post by: Brian.Dixon on June 28, 2021, 03:30:13 PM
I saw a GA builder cranking his hull onto his trailer once ... the jig rolled forward with the boat and smashed/broke a row of 3 lights on the center of the end of the trailer ... live and learn they say :)
Title: Re: Outdoor build of GA Kodiak, Orange, CA
Post by: json on June 28, 2021, 03:37:52 PM

I saw a GA builder cranking his hull onto his trailer once ... the jig rolled forward with the boat and smashed/broke a row of 3 lights on the center of the end of the trailer ... live and learn they say :)


Ya, I haven't checked quite yet but my jig rolled up against the strip on my trailer too, might have cracked it. I was sort of committed at that point... w/e, moving on!
Title: Re: Outdoor build of GA Kodiak, Orange, CA
Post by: Rbob on June 28, 2021, 07:42:50 PM
Glad it went on with only minor damage.  I will be trying the same soon, my brother in-law use to unhook the trailer from the truck and winch boats on at the marina he worked at, I need to ask him again its been 30 years since I seen it done.

It was suggested to me to put dish soap on the trailer bunks to make it slide, I have never put one on a trailer before.  A side note my brother in-law was winching boats that were resting on car tires not a jig...

Thanks for the video!

Title: Re: Outdoor build of GA Kodiak, Orange, CA
Post by: json on June 28, 2021, 10:55:46 PM
Glad it went on with only minor damage.  I will be trying the same soon, my brother in-law use to unhook the trailer from the truck and winch boats on at the marina he worked at, I need to ask him again its been 30 years since I seen it done.

It was suggested to me to put dish soap on the trailer bunks to make it slide, I have never put one on a trailer before.  A side note my brother in-law was winching boats that were resting on car tires not a jig...

Thanks for the video!

I bet that dish soap would have really helped. I wish I had thought of that. I think a large part of my problem was the binding from the plastic and the angle of attack. I needed my tongue higher, back lower, less friction, and the aft bunks a bit closer to center towards the front. I am going to try to jack the boat to make adjustments to the bunks, but not sure how that will go. I might just need to get this thing done and put it in the water to really make the adjustments correctly. We will see.
Title: Re: Outdoor build of GA Kodiak, Orange, CA
Post by: Djeffrey on June 29, 2021, 07:00:41 AM
Outstanding, did you spray on the paint or roll it, looks great?
Title: Re: Outdoor build of GA Kodiak, Orange, CA
Post by: Brian.Dixon on June 29, 2021, 08:03:58 AM

With the tongue jack all the way up, you can lower the back end of the trailer even lower by letting air out down to 15psi or so... the trailer will squish down and be more forgiving as the boat makes the leap from jig to trailer ...

Title: Re: Outdoor build of GA Kodiak, Orange, CA
Post by: json on June 29, 2021, 08:30:15 AM
Outstanding, did you spray on the paint or roll it, looks great?

I rolled it. Still need to do a final sand and 1 more coat, but  this paint is unreal. Seriously great stuff.
Title: Re: Outdoor build of GA Kodiak, Orange, CA
Post by: rhenryinoregon on June 29, 2021, 01:12:14 PM
Thatís beautiful! Great video getting it on the trailer as well, Iím a ways out from that but it was very instructive. I will be duplicating your bullwork and with the euro transom, our boats will look pretty similar (I hope). That paint does look very good. Congrats - got to feel good.
Title: Re: Outdoor build of GA Kodiak, Orange, CA
Post by: json on June 29, 2021, 04:07:47 PM
Thatís beautiful! Great video getting it on the trailer as well, Iím a ways out from that but it was very instructive. I will be duplicating your bullwork and with the euro transom, our boats will look pretty similar (I hope). That paint does look very good. Congrats - got to feel good.

Thanks Randy, definitely feels good. :) Looking forward to seeing your build progress, you are cruising thus far... Keep it up!
Title: Re: Outdoor build of GA Kodiak, Orange, CA
Post by: json on August 19, 2021, 04:45:06 PM
After a summer of fun that didn't include a lot of boat building I am back at it. Today I wrapped up installing my windows, and a number of other tiny shiny things. I also found a rental yard that rents engine hoists by the day, so one of these days soon I might grab one for the day and hang my Yamaha.
Title: Re: Outdoor build of GA Kodiak, Orange, CA
Post by: Todd j on August 20, 2021, 08:25:36 AM
The whole thing looks shiny!
Title: Re: Outdoor build of GA Kodiak, Orange, CA
Post by: Djeffrey on August 20, 2021, 05:00:13 PM
Stupendous!!
Title: Re: Outdoor build of GA Kodiak, Orange, CA
Post by: Grady300 on August 20, 2021, 07:33:18 PM
Beautiful!!! Super good job Jason!
Title: Re: Outdoor build of GA Kodiak, Orange, CA
Post by: Todd j on August 20, 2021, 11:47:13 PM
After seeing your boat Iíve been wishing I did the bulwarks to mine.  I really like the look.
Title: Re: Outdoor build of GA Kodiak, Orange, CA
Post by: json on August 21, 2021, 10:41:25 AM
Thanks Todd, I totally agree. They did add a lot of time to my build, but helped me work out some flaws in my sheer line, so big plus there. My biggest worry with them tho is they seem pretty vulnerable to getting dinged on the top. I am kind of mulling over solutions for that, right now they have the end grain treatment (silica epoxy rubbed into them). Pretty sure if I drop an anchor on them tho they are gonna get compromised. I might try topping them with some ipe or maybe plastic.
Title: Re: Outdoor build of GA Kodiak, Orange, CA
Post by: rogerbonnot on August 21, 2021, 01:58:23 PM
Hi Jason.

I am very grateful and really happy to hear your comment on Alexseal and to see the great photos of the finished boat.
Great job.
I'm building a 25 foot Great Alaskan in Spain, Ibiza. Almost finished.
I'll get my Alexseal paint delivered next week. Will also roll and not spray, no space in the workshop ...
Cabin Top cloude withe, Hull Light gray.

Thanks again for your great job.
Roger Bonnot
Title: Re: Outdoor build of GA Kodiak, Orange, CA
Post by: json on August 21, 2021, 05:14:01 PM
Hey Roger, thanks! Good choice in colors! ;) Post pics of your paint job and your boat, I am positive I am not the only one around here who would love to see it...
Title: Re: Outdoor build of GA Kodiak, Orange, CA
Post by: json on August 21, 2021, 05:56:52 PM
I installed my EZ anchor puller ez5 today, it looks rock solid. I got 700 ft of 1/4" dyneema, another 75' of 8 plait 1/2" nylon and another 50' of 1/4" G4 galvanized chain and went ahead and put that on. To do it I flaked the rode into a couple buckets, put water into them, and then put a half full bucket of water on top to keep tension and keep the dyneema under water. It worked really well. Only 1 problem, I wound it on the wrong direction... doh! Oh well, I will be really good at it the next time I do it lol.

Title: Re: Outdoor build of GA Kodiak, Orange, CA
Post by: ghelland on August 22, 2021, 07:48:06 PM
Jason,
What do you mean by wrapping the wrong direction?  Were you supposed to have the line pull off the bottom of the spool?
Title: Re: Outdoor build of GA Kodiak, Orange, CA
Post by: json on August 22, 2021, 09:45:55 PM
Jason,
What do you mean by wrapping the wrong direction?  Were you supposed to have the line pull off the bottom of the spool?

Yes, the ez4, 5, and 6 (and maybe the others, not sure) are directional. They have a free-fall clutch that disengages when you hold the down button for 2 seconds, which allows the drum to free spin and drop the anchor as fast as it can go. According to the orientation shown in their drawings I spooled mine backwards. I am not entirely sure I want to pull my anchor rode under the spool, it would probably put a lot of strain on the roller and just not be a great angle of attack on pulling the load. But, now that I think about it, pulling the anchor rode over a bow roller is basically the same sort of thing, so maybe it doesn't matter as much as I think. In any case, I have my rode off of the pile of boxes sitting next to my desk, so for now it's at least out of my way. I might reach out to their rep and ask about it and see what they say. I think the motor is orientable, so if I was so inclined to incur the pain I could pull it off and reinstall it the other way, but I definitely don't want the motor sticking out into the foot room behind the winch where people will be walking, and even if I install it the other way I think I still need to spool it on in the other direction.

Title: Re: Outdoor build of GA Kodiak, Orange, CA
Post by: Rbob on August 23, 2021, 07:59:37 PM
I looks right, feeding the top of the roller, maybe the motor can be mounted on either side. 

Those are awesome  though!

I am pretty sure the pic of @Dan Boccia anchor puller the chain is coming off the top of the roller, maybe he will chime in.
Title: Re: Outdoor build of GA Kodiak, Orange, CA
Post by: ghelland on August 24, 2021, 10:53:23 PM
Thank you for the reply.  I plan on using the same winch and had no idea that that it could not be wound either direction. 
Title: Re: Outdoor build of GA Kodiak, Orange, CA
Post by: json on August 24, 2021, 11:45:01 PM
Dan has his motor on the right looking forward, mine is on the left. I assume he spun his motor to make it pull from the top which is what I probably should do (dangit)Ö
Title: Re: Outdoor build of GA Kodiak, Orange, CA
Post by: Rbob on August 24, 2021, 11:54:49 PM

That will be EZ Enough!   At least you figured it out.

Just one more time.   
Title: Re: Outdoor build of GA Kodiak, Orange, CA
Post by: json on September 03, 2021, 03:57:15 PM
I hung my motor today, nice to get that off the floor of my shop. I went and rented an engine hoist which made it a breeze. My bolts weren't long enough, but luckily my contact at the local yamaha dealer was able to hook me up with some new bolts that worked. I measured my tongue weight of my trailer last week, it came in quite heavy at 1200ish pounds (I sort of figured as much), which is more than I want to put on my half ton truck. I am hoping when I re-measure it now that it's a bit lighter, and that I can make it work instead of having to move the axles forward on this trailer or get a new truck. I am probably due a new truck anyways but I was hoping to make it to next year before I went there. I need to get this trailer down to AAA to register it, so hopefully I can figure out a way to do it with my tundra. Maybe I will throw some sand bags on the stern and get a little more off the front.
Title: Re: Outdoor build of GA Kodiak, Orange, CA
Post by: json on September 03, 2021, 05:06:46 PM
I just measured again after hanging the motor, got about 800 lbs, which is a bit on the heavy side but I am definitely better with that than the 1200.
Title: Re: Outdoor build of GA Kodiak, Orange, CA
Post by: Rbob on September 03, 2021, 06:19:42 PM
Using the engine hoist is a great idea, on the tongue weight, I have a half ton Nissan and just recently installed airbags in the rear, what a difference it made.  I pull an 26' camp trailer and it usually squats which I do not like.

Truck rides great even without the trailer, I put 40lbs air but you can go up to 100 which I would not do.

Here's the info: https://www.amazon.com/gp/product/B000CFS01E/ref=ppx_yo_dt_b_asin_title_o07_s00?ie=UTF8&psc=1 (https://www.amazon.com/gp/product/B000CFS01E/ref=ppx_yo_dt_b_asin_title_o07_s00?ie=UTF8&psc=1)
 
Title: Re: Outdoor build of GA Kodiak, Orange, CA
Post by: json on September 04, 2021, 09:23:44 AM
Airbags is an interesting idea. I pull a 28í travel trailer that puts my truck to the limit (8500/850+ tw) but it doesnít really squat when I am using the weight distribution hitch. I donít really have that option with the boat so I am sure it will squat like crazy. Thanks for the tip!
Title: Re: Outdoor build of GA Kodiak, Orange, CA
Post by: Brian.Dixon on September 04, 2021, 10:10:52 AM
Using the engine hoist is a great idea, on the tongue weight, I have a half ton Nissan and just recently installed airbags in the rear, what a difference it made.  I pull an 26' camp trailer and it usually squats which I do not like.

Truck rides great even without the trailer, I put 40lbs air but you can go up to 100 which I would not do.

Here's the info: https://www.amazon.com/gp/product/B000CFS01E/ref=ppx_yo_dt_b_asin_title_o07_s00?ie=UTF8&psc=1 (https://www.amazon.com/gp/product/B000CFS01E/ref=ppx_yo_dt_b_asin_title_o07_s00?ie=UTF8&psc=1)

Air bags are great for those occasional heavy tows that you have to do ... but WARNING: MAKE SURE that when your shop installs them, that they BEVEL/CHAMFER the top AND bottom of the holes they put in your truck's frame before they install the airbags.  If they don't, then frame cracks can occur, originating from the sharp edges on those non-factory holes in the frame.  Just sayin' ... as with all things, get educated and do it right the first time.  The cracking issue occurred to a friend of mine (1996 Chevy 1/2 ton)


Title: Re: Outdoor build of GA Kodiak, Orange, CA
Post by: rhenryinoregon on September 05, 2021, 09:06:40 PM
I did the Roadmaster Active Suspension add-on to my Ford F-150 1/2 tone and really like it. My travel trailer would really make it squat and sway. Theyíre a little bit more money but donít require pumping up. And when there is no load I really donít know the difference. Itís been a great solution for my truck.  https://www.etrailer.com/dept-pg-Vehicle_Suspension-pm-RAS.aspx (https://www.etrailer.com/dept-pg-Vehicle_Suspension-pm-RAS.aspx)
Title: Re: Outdoor build of GA Kodiak, Orange, CA
Post by: Brian.Dixon on September 06, 2021, 08:36:30 AM
I did the Roadmaster Active Suspension add-on to my Ford F-150 1/2 tone and really like it. My travel trailer would really make it squat and sway. Theyíre a little bit more money but donít require pumping up. And when there is no load I really donít know the difference. Itís been a great solution for my truck.  https://www.etrailer.com/dept-pg-Vehicle_Suspension-pm-RAS.aspx (https://www.etrailer.com/dept-pg-Vehicle_Suspension-pm-RAS.aspx)

I like how they don't require any holes to be drilled.  Do they actually prevent squating when towing a load that's a bit much for your truck's rating?

(https://cdn.shopify.com/s/files/1/0557/7585/4800/files/home-kit-photo.png?v=1626876606)

Title: Re: Outdoor build of GA Kodiak, Orange, CA
Post by: ghelland on September 06, 2021, 01:48:04 PM
I would bet that if things went wrong and you crashed the insurance company would not pay and money can not replace what we have invested in our boats.
Title: Re: Outdoor build of GA Kodiak, Orange, CA
Post by: Rbob on September 06, 2021, 03:09:29 PM
Insurance?  As long as you do not exceed the recommended towing capacity of your vehicle I see no issue. 

It is safer towing with a non sagging vehicle for sure.  The only compromise I see is the brakes on a half ton truck are not ideal for panic stops with heavy loads behind so keep plenty of room in front of you.  I can tow with a F-350 Crew Cab Diesel with disc brakes all around and the stopping power is amazing, when I tow with my Nissan I am very careful..

Couple of great articles below.
 
https://autoreviewhub.com/trucks-towing-capacity-ranked/ (https://autoreviewhub.com/trucks-towing-capacity-ranked/)

https://www.kbb.com/car-advice/towing-capacity-guide/ (https://www.kbb.com/car-advice/towing-capacity-guide/)

Title: Re: Outdoor build of GA Kodiak, Orange, CA
Post by: sprig1 on September 06, 2021, 06:06:06 PM
   Just for information. I just put 5000 lb Firestone air bags on my 2002 GMC 2500hd. You donít have to drill anything but one small 3/16 hole in the middle of the frame. They work great. I pull a 11,000 lb trailer and no squat.
Title: Re: Outdoor build of GA Kodiak, Orange, CA
Post by: Brian.Dixon on September 07, 2021, 07:19:17 AM
   Just for information. I just put 5000 lb Firestone air bags on my 2002 GMC 2500hd. You donít have to drill anything but one small 3/16 hole in the middle of the frame. They work great. I pull a 11,000 lb trailer and no squat.

Nice!

Title: Re: Outdoor build of GA Kodiak, Orange, CA
Post by: Todd j on September 07, 2021, 10:40:17 AM
I have my truck such as it is optimized for towing.  I think.  Itís old and maybe with all the added goodies not even comparable to a newer stock truck.  I too have the Firestone airbags, with the in cab gauge and inflation.   Itís the only way to go.  I also have front and rear sway bars.  I added a back up camera too.  It has made it much nicer for towing.
Title: Re: Outdoor build of GA Kodiak, Orange, CA
Post by: Grady300 on September 07, 2021, 10:53:44 PM
Insurance?  As long as you do not exceed the recommended towing capacity of your vehicle I see no issue. 

It is safer towing with a non sagging vehicle for sure.  The only compromise I see is the brakes on a half ton truck are not ideal for panic stops with heavy loads behind so keep plenty of room in front of you.  I can tow with a F-350 Crew Cab Diesel with disc brakes all around and the stopping power is amazing, when I tow with my Nissan I am very careful..

Couple of great articles below.
 
https://autoreviewhub.com/trucks-towing-capacity-ranked/ (https://autoreviewhub.com/trucks-towing-capacity-ranked/)

https://www.kbb.com/car-advice/towing-capacity-guide/ (https://www.kbb.com/car-advice/towing-capacity-guide/)
I agree. My stock F-350 same as robs tows everything, its amazing! Just towed my rig over the pass to get a motor. It had 1470 lbs of tong weight. Never swayed once but it has good electric breaks on the trailer and I was very careful. I'll be moving the axles forward
Title: Re: Outdoor build of GA Kodiak, Orange, CA
Post by: rhenryinoregon on September 08, 2021, 04:15:00 PM
I did the Roadmaster Active Suspension add-on to my Ford F-150 1/2 tone and really like it. My travel trailer would really make it squat and sway. Theyíre a little bit more money but donít require pumping up. And when there is no load I really donít know the difference. Itís been a great solution for my truck.  https://www.etrailer.com/dept-pg-Vehicle_Suspension-pm-RAS.aspx (https://www.etrailer.com/dept-pg-Vehicle_Suspension-pm-RAS.aspx)

I like how they don't require any holes to be drilled.  Do they actually prevent squating when towing a load that's a bit much for your truck's rating?

(https://cdn.shopify.com/s/files/1/0557/7585/4800/files/home-kit-photo.png?v=1626876606)

I bought a beat up 24í travel trailer to refurbish three years ago - lots of tongue weight.  That first trip home on winding gravel roads and the Columbia Gorge highway was frightening. The truck squatted quite a bit and the trailer  was squirrelly in wind, I think that was my first experience with leaf spring roll as well. These things completely solved the problem and I donít notice any change in ride when not towing anything. Iíve had them three years now and no problems. You can screw them down for a heavier load if needed but I find the base setting is adequate. Iíve literally never touched them since I put them on except to occasionally make sure theyíre still there. Iím pretty happy with them.
Title: Re: Outdoor build of GA Kodiak, Orange, CA
Post by: Brian.Dixon on September 09, 2021, 12:49:28 PM

The RAS thing looks easy to install too.  I still believe that a 3/4 ton truck w/enhancement (RAS or bags) is a great compromise... rides better than a 1-ton, you generally get a tranny that's more "car like" in how it shifts and uses over-drive etc, but in a heart beat, you can tow something heavier.  Oh ... the 3/4t costs $10k less too ....

You've viewed the truck from the side and that gizmo prevents squat?  Or is it more of a roll-control device?

Title: Re: Outdoor build of GA Kodiak, Orange, CA
Post by: rhenryinoregon on September 18, 2021, 07:41:53 PM

The RAS thing looks easy to install too.  I still believe that a 3/4 ton truck w/enhancement (RAS or bags) is a great compromise... rides better than a 1-ton, you generally get a tranny that's more "car like" in how it shifts and uses over-drive etc, but in a heart beat, you can tow something heavier.  Oh ... the 3/4t costs $10k less too ....

You've viewed the truck from the side and that gizmo prevents squat?  Or is it more of a roll-control device?
Definitely prevents squat.
Title: Re: Outdoor build of GA Kodiak, Orange, CA
Post by: json on September 18, 2021, 09:18:27 PM
For those who may be curious I talked to a rep from ez anchor puller on Friday, they said that pulling under the spool was no problem as long as as I was using the roller that was provided in the kit, which I am. I guess real world will probably dictate whether further action on my part is necessary but they seemed pretty confident that that was within the intended use for their system.
Title: Re: Outdoor build of GA Kodiak, Orange, CA
Post by: Brian.Dixon on September 19, 2021, 08:54:58 AM

The RAS thing looks easy to install too.  I still believe that a 3/4 ton truck w/enhancement (RAS or bags) is a great compromise... rides better than a 1-ton, you generally get a tranny that's more "car like" in how it shifts and uses over-drive etc, but in a heart beat, you can tow something heavier.  Oh ... the 3/4t costs $10k less too ....

You've viewed the truck from the side and that gizmo prevents squat?  Or is it more of a roll-control device?
Definitely prevents squat.

Well ... as soon as I get a new(er) F-250, I might just put those in!  Hate drilling holes through factory metal ... but would for airbags, especially if the hole is small as mentioned above.