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Great Alaskan and Boat Building => Projects - Glacier Boats of Alaska boat projects => Topic started by: ghelland on August 06, 2020, 07:04:11 PM

Title: 30' GA in Elma Wa.
Post by: ghelland on August 06, 2020, 07:04:11 PM
Brian,
I am trying to determine the location of Mold #2 on my 30' jig.  By using the locations given on page 66 and drawing 004c, I see that the location between 27' and 28' changed by 7" instead of the 5" change seen between the 26' to 27' versions.  Due to the non-linear change I would like help with the 30' Mold #2 location. 
It also appears that on drawing 010c the locations for Molds #1 and #2 are not as simple as adding an amount per foot.  Please let me know where they should be too.
Title: Re: 30' GA in Elma Wa.
Post by: Brian.Dixon on August 07, 2020, 05:28:13 AM
Brian,
I am trying to determine the location of Mold #2 on my 30' jig.  By using the locations given on page 66 and drawing 004c, I see that the location between 27' and 28' changed by 7" instead of the 5" change seen between the 26' to 27' versions.  Due to the non-linear change I would like help with the 30' Mold #2 location. 
It also appears that on drawing 010c the locations for Molds #1 and #2 are not as simple as adding an amount per foot.  Please let me know where they should be too.

I can help you but we're out for the weekend, back on Monday .. :(

Title: Re: 30' GA in Elma Wa.
Post by: Rbob on August 07, 2020, 07:54:21 AM
ghelland,

Glad to see a build that will be near to me, I am in Olympia so if you every need some help I am close by.  I do not have any experience  / knowledge with the 30' model but some experience with glass/epoxy etc.

Looking forward to this build.

RBob
Title: Re: 30' GA in Elma Wa.
Post by: Brian.Dixon on August 10, 2020, 09:55:48 AM
Brian,
I am trying to determine the location of Mold #2 on my 30' jig.  By using the locations given on page 66 and drawing 004c, I see that the location between 27' and 28' changed by 7" instead of the 5" change seen between the 26' to 27' versions.  Due to the non-linear change I would like help with the 30' Mold #2 location. 
It also appears that on drawing 010c the locations for Molds #1 and #2 are not as simple as adding an amount per foot.  Please let me know where they should be too.

Mold #2 for bottom panels and shelves - The key take away for you is that you want the hull and sheer to describe a smooth curve ... do that and it'll look good and work well.  Note that the Great Alaskan models are all the same bottom assembly (shape) from amidships forward (same for sheerline), and all stretching is done by expanding/shrinking the stations from amidships aft... like an accordian from amidships aft, front half of the boat staying the same.  Those molds that go between the stern and amidships need to go where they FIT, e.g. Mold #1 near the stern as spec'd, Mold #3 near amidships as spec'd, and Mold #2 about halfway between ... nudged fore or aft to fit and achieve a smooth curve.  The given locations work for the given lengths.  The bottom line is that you will want to eyeball the curves from all angles and put the molds in the location that works best ... Again, what you are looking for are smooth curves and the straight runs aft that are described in the construction manual.  Hope the above is clear... :D


Brian




Title: Re: 30' GA in Elma Wa.
Post by: ghelland on August 27, 2020, 09:26:56 PM
ghelland,

Glad to see a build that will be near to me, I am in Olympia so if you every need some help I am close by.  I do not have any experience  / knowledge with the 30' model but some experience with glass/epoxy etc.

Looking forward to this build.

RBob
I looked at your boat project.  WOW!
When you are done, I think you might have the nicest great alaskan ever built.
I would like to see your boat because seeing your boat will give me a little of your hindsight and help keep me on the right track.
Title: Re: 30' GA in Elma Wa.
Post by: Rbob on August 29, 2020, 08:34:13 AM
ghelland,

Cant wait to see your boat also, you can come by almost any evening or weekend, except archery elk season...

Get some pics up soon.

Bob
Title: Re: 30' GA in Elma Wa.
Post by: Todd j on August 29, 2020, 08:44:28 AM
Are you stretching a GA to 30í or building the Kodiak?
Title: Re: 30' GA in Elma Wa.
Post by: ghelland on August 30, 2020, 06:47:19 PM
Todd, Its a GA.  I don't want to tow a 10.5' boat all over the country.
Title: Re: 30' GA in Elma Wa.
Post by: Brian.Dixon on August 31, 2020, 05:36:06 AM

ghelland's boat will be the longest GA yet, beating Kent Cannon's by about 8" or so.  Kent's is 29'4".

Title: Re: 30' GA in Elma Wa.
Post by: Grady300 on August 31, 2020, 10:11:36 AM
Todd, Its a GA.  I don't want to tow a 10.5' boat all over the country.
Just to clarify The Kodiak is only 9'6' not 10" 6". Most states will allow a yearly permit under 10 feet wide so no big deal towing. If it wasn't for worrying about insurance denying a claim wile towing I wouldn't even bother with a permit. I doubt any law enforcement would even notice at 9'6" or at least bother with it.
Title: Re: 30' GA in Elma Wa.
Post by: Brian.Dixon on August 31, 2020, 12:20:59 PM

Yeah, greater than 8-1/2 ft wide and less than 10 feet just requires a permit and maybe the banner.  Over 10 feet wide and you'll need pilot vehicles... This is why the standard GA is just under 8-1/2 ft wide (no permit at all) and the Kodiak is less than 10 ft wide (no pilot car)

Title: Re: 30' GA in Elma Wa.
Post by: tom e on September 02, 2020, 08:46:09 AM
ghelland,

Having seen Bob's boat, I can testify to the quality of his work.  He has good design examples to consider, e.g. his splash well.  His approach to building is instructive also, e.g. his roof build.

TE
Title: Re: 30' GA in Elma Wa.
Post by: Tom Freeburg on September 02, 2020, 09:32:07 AM
How can I learn more about the splash well by ghelland?
Thank you
Title: Re: 30' GA in Elma Wa.
Post by: Rbob on September 02, 2020, 10:53:25 AM
Tom,
I believe the extended bracket is what Tom E. is referring to.


Starts here:
https://www.glacierboats.net/forum/index.php?topic=444.150 (https://www.glacierboats.net/forum/index.php?topic=444.150)

Title: Re: 30' GA in Elma Wa.
Post by: Tom Freeburg on September 02, 2020, 09:15:12 PM
Ok, thx,
Maybe in a year or two.
Just trying to finish out my Jumbo 25.5 right now
Title: Re: 30' GA in Elma Wa.
Post by: ghelland on November 07, 2020, 10:43:56 PM
Its been 3 months since I started the boat and the kit I bought from Grady300 is great.  I was working on shaping the stem and could not find pictures.   So here are a couple from mine.  I guessed how much I would need to remove to get the foreword edge of the stem to match the chine and marked lines on the side of the stem.  Then I  put lines on the bottom of the stem parallel to the hull.  Then I slowly removed material.
Title: Re: 30' GA in Elma Wa.
Post by: ghelland on November 07, 2020, 10:54:42 PM
This is the final alignment for my stem
Title: Re: 30' GA in Elma Wa.
Post by: Rbob on November 08, 2020, 10:44:47 PM
That looks perfect to me, I had some difficulty but got thru it.


Title: Re: 30' GA in Elma Wa.
Post by: Brian.Dixon on November 09, 2020, 05:42:49 AM

Yup .. there's a little work involved in the tuning of the stem's shape .. but (my opinion), it's one of the prettiest parts of the boat where the panels and chines all blend.  It's worth it :)

Title: Re: 30' GA in Elma Wa.
Post by: Rbob on December 01, 2020, 07:38:57 PM
Ghelland,

I am done with my roof mold, if you are interested you can come and get it, if not my plan is to burn it..


Title: Re: 30' GA in Elma Wa.
Post by: ghelland on December 02, 2020, 12:08:23 PM
Yes. I will be taking this fixture from Rbob.  It is very rare that someone offers you the gift of time.  We should all be inspired by this act.
Title: Re: 30' GA in Elma Wa.
Post by: Grady300 on December 02, 2020, 02:52:20 PM
Yes. I will be taking this fixture from Rbob.  It is very rare that someone offers you the gift of time.  We should all be inspired by this act.
I agree with you! That will save a bunch of time.
Title: Re: 30' GA in Elma Wa.
Post by: Todd j on December 02, 2020, 08:30:44 PM
It would be awesome if you gifted it too.  If only I was closer!
Title: Re: 30' GA in Elma Wa.
Post by: Rbob on December 07, 2020, 02:35:36 PM
Gary and his wife came and picked up the roof mold, glad it is going to good use.  They live pretty close so easy haul, cant wait to see more of their build.


Bob 
Title: Re: 30' GA in Elma Wa.
Post by: Brian.Dixon on December 07, 2020, 02:41:28 PM
Gary and his wife came and picked up the roof mold, glad it is going to good use.  They live pretty close so easy haul, cant wait to see more of their build.

Bob

Thanks, Bob.  I'm not alone when I say that your good character is an example to all ... nice to help out a fellow boat builder :)

Title: Re: 30' GA in Elma Wa.
Post by: Rbob on December 07, 2020, 06:03:25 PM
I enjoyed talking to them,  good people and have plans for making some fantastic voyages with their GA.  One involving the Mississippi loop.  Never heard of it before, that is not the correct name but I am sure Gary will chime in and share.


Bob
Title: Re: 30' GA in Elma Wa.
Post by: ghelland on December 08, 2020, 10:11:29 PM
That would be the great loop.   6000 miles of fun.  There will be lots of shorter trips made before that loop.  Alaska is calling.
Nothing to exciting happening with the build, just added the second side to the bow cladding and started shaping up the stem and shelves for placing the sides on the hull.
Title: Re: 30' GA in Elma Wa.
Post by: ghelland on January 03, 2021, 06:31:41 PM
Over the holiday we got quite a bit done, we now have the starboard side installed forever. 
One of the pictures was taken under the hull.
Title: Re: 30' GA in Elma Wa.
Post by: Brian.Dixon on January 04, 2021, 06:54:49 AM
Nice progress. For your shelter, were you able to get the plans from Stimson?  Seems like he was out of biz, unresponsive for a long time .... is the Stimson Bow Roof Shed available again?

https://www.by-the-sea.com/stimsonmarine/bowroof.html

Title: Re: 30' GA in Elma Wa.
Post by: Rbob on January 04, 2021, 10:19:30 AM
Looking good Gary,

Pics are kinda wide,  fixed it.  You and Kim are making great progress.

I really like the stimson roof shed, I had ordered the plans but found you really do not need them.  I found a video on Medieval Math and used that principle on sketchup and found you can make it any size you want easily.

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=y6qE3mC5d4o (https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=y6qE3mC5d4o)


Title: Re: 30' GA in Elma Wa.
Post by: ghelland on January 04, 2021, 01:41:22 PM
About the shed.  I just sketched up a single arch and built it on my barn floor.  We did have to add plastic to the inside this winter to catch the condensation.  When we started heating it in the evenings the water would run down to the perlans and drip off on to the project.

I am not sure what is happening with the width of my pictures so any clues would be appreciated.
Title: Re: 30' GA in Elma Wa.
Post by: Grady300 on January 04, 2021, 02:48:11 PM
That is an awesome temp boat building shed!
Title: Re: 30' GA in Elma Wa.
Post by: Rbob on January 04, 2021, 03:11:17 PM

I am not sure what is happening with the width of my pictures so any clues would be appreciated.

Not sure, I resized and rotated your pic and it still came out sideways, It could be a cell phone thing, Its the aspect ration that was off. I resize the photos with the Paint Program on my computer, I "right click" the photo I want and select edit to resize and rotate if needed:

 

Title: Re: 30' GA in Elma Wa.
Post by: Brian.Dixon on January 04, 2021, 04:58:05 PM

The image rotation and scaling is caused by Simple Machines Forums failing to recognize EXIF info in the picture ... a problem with pix from phones in particular.  There's a mod that's on my todo list to install that automatically fixes this (Automatic Attachment Rotation mod) ... it reads the EXIF tags, determines which way is up, and then inserts the picture in the RIGHT orientation ... thanks for the heads up.  I keep forgetting about it ....

Title: Re: 30' GA in Elma Wa.
Post by: ghelland on January 04, 2021, 09:07:34 PM
Today i placed the other side on the hull and crawled under to mark for cutting.  Wow!!!!! I have been smiling for hours.
Title: Re: 30' GA in Elma Wa.
Post by: Brian.Dixon on January 05, 2021, 06:03:43 AM
Today i placed the other side on the hull and crawled under to mark for cutting.  Wow!!!!! I have been smiling for hours.

It's looking like a giant boat now!  :D

Title: Re: 30' GA in Elma Wa.
Post by: ghelland on January 29, 2021, 12:44:08 PM
Brian, I was looking on line and found a few places that said you should not use a Kerosene heater when working with epoxy.  Have you ever heard of anyone having a real problem with this?
Title: Re: 30' GA in Elma Wa.
Post by: Brian.Dixon on January 29, 2021, 02:42:35 PM
Brian, I was looking on line and found a few places that said you should not use a Kerosene heater when working with epoxy.  Have you ever heard of anyone having a real problem with this?

People do use them and I haven't heard of any complaints.  I think the main issues are moisture and soot.  Usually, if it's cold, the air is dry, so moisture shouldn't be a big problem.  I also seem to recall it's the forced-air (looks like a jet engine on a cart) ones that may have issues.  Personally, I think if you're burning #1 stove oil or clean kerosene, then deposits ought to be minimal, and if the heater's in good condition, it should burn very clean and not leave soot.  Try it for a week ... then walk down the boat full length while dragging your hand or a clean paper towel along the top surface of the boat and look ...

Not sure if that helps or not ... I've always had boiler heat (exterior stack) or heated with natural gas.


Title: Re: 30' GA in Elma Wa.
Post by: ghelland on January 29, 2021, 06:49:35 PM
Thanks, its a brand new heater and I have not seen any soot.  The only issue I see is the room heats up way faster than the wood.  So I am heating the room for a few hours before applying anything.  When I fire up the heat on a cold day the thick areas of the boat are so cold that water condenses out of the air to let me know I need to wait for the wood to heat up.
Title: Re: 30' GA in Elma Wa.
Post by: Brian.Dixon on January 30, 2021, 08:06:39 AM

Sounds good to me!  Dave Nolan provides good advice ... heat the wood WARMER than you want, then apply epoxy while the room/wood cools off.  This will draw epoxy deeper into the wood.  Applying epoxy to new wood in a warming environment can cause bubbles as the wood out-gasses.  Subsequent coats of epoxy fixes that, but who wants them?

Check for soot or other residues, including plain ol' dust, before applying epoxy.  This is standard practice for everyone - clean boat, wiped down w/vinegar or ammonia water and dried, is a great prep for epoxy.  The ONLY epoxy joint that I've seen fail (a bracket under a sheer deck) was one that was applied to dusty wood that was not wiped down before gluing.

Title: Re: 30' GA in Elma Wa.
Post by: Rbob on January 30, 2021, 04:16:38 PM
Gary,
I had two cheap oil filled electric heaters that I placed under the hull (upside down boat) to heat the wood from the inside so you are putting epoxy on warm wood.

Your boat is pretty low the way it sits so not much heat would be escaping.

https://www.homedepot.com/p/1-500-Watt-Oil-Filled-Radiant-Electric-Space-Heater-with-Thermostat-HO-0279/309069851 (https://www.homedepot.com/p/1-500-Watt-Oil-Filled-Radiant-Electric-Space-Heater-with-Thermostat-HO-0279/309069851)
Title: Re: 30' GA in Elma Wa.
Post by: Brian.Dixon on January 30, 2021, 04:48:07 PM
Gary,
I had two cheap oil filled electric heaters that I placed under the hull (upside down boat) to heat the wood from the inside so you are putting epoxy on warm wood.

Your boat is pretty low the way it sits so not much heat would be escaping.

https://www.homedepot.com/p/1-500-Watt-Oil-Filled-Radiant-Electric-Space-Heater-with-Thermostat-HO-0279/309069851 (https://www.homedepot.com/p/1-500-Watt-Oil-Filled-Radiant-Electric-Space-Heater-with-Thermostat-HO-0279/309069851)

At 500W, they don't put out a lot of heat but I own TWO of them because they work ... and work well.  Just give them some time and enjoy...
Title: Re: 30' GA in Elma Wa.
Post by: Rbob on January 30, 2021, 10:37:00 PM
1,500 watts

These work amazingly well underneath a boat, not so much in a big open space.

I left mine on for days at a time when I was glassing the bottom and sides, if you have one of those infrared temp guns you can check the surface temp, I paid maybe 10 bucks and bought 2 of them, thanks to covid they are $25 - $30 now.

On edit, found one on ebay for $9.46, last one.

https://www.ebay.com/itm/Non-Contact-LCD-Digital-Infrared-Thermometer-Temperature-IR-Gun-Industrial/402656622218?hash=item5dc034768a:g:hJ4AAOSwCpVgC5hP (https://www.ebay.com/itm/Non-Contact-LCD-Digital-Infrared-Thermometer-Temperature-IR-Gun-Industrial/402656622218?hash=item5dc034768a:g:hJ4AAOSwCpVgC5hP)
Title: Re: 30' GA in Elma Wa.
Post by: ghelland on February 03, 2021, 06:16:55 PM
Thanks for your input.  As long as it is above freezing outside my heater can get the boat warm enough to suck the epoxy into the wood and ask for more.  I keep all my supplies in the house to make sure the epoxy is thin. 
FYI I am using Aero brand epoxy and have zero complaints.

Oh, how I miss those warm days in summer.
Title: Re: 30' GA in Elma Wa.
Post by: Rbob on February 03, 2021, 07:24:31 PM
Is it Aeromarine Epoxy?  I used that in the beginning, but Ebond epoxy's  price was impossible for me to ignore, 6 gallons delivered for $286 vs Aeromarine $611 for the same 6 gallons.

You will use 30 - 50 gallons.

On edit, I purchased 15g from aeromarine, when I poured it into my 5g dispensers it ended up being 13.5 gallons, when I called them out on it they sent me 3 gallons for free and changed the description on ebay.
Title: Re: 30' GA in Elma Wa.
Post by: Grady300 on February 03, 2021, 08:18:36 PM
I keep hearing about E-Bond and the price is so good it scares me! Ever any issues with blushing? or anything else for that matter? I've always used Euro at least it was better price than West or System-3. Not sure I would risk mixing the two, don't know enough about it to see if the chemicals are compatible. Besides I just ordered another 6 gallon kit, hope that's it
Title: Re: 30' GA in Elma Wa.
Post by: Rbob on February 03, 2021, 09:44:44 PM
Blushing? I know that Cannon experience it in an unheated shop but I have never had it happen, but I always clean before sanding unless I re-apply it while still in the green state. 

1285 is faster, 1289 for warmer weather and it wets cloth out better.
http://www.ebondepoxies.com/products-services/marine-epoxies/ (http://www.ebondepoxies.com/products-services/marine-epoxies/)
Title: Re: 30' GA in Elma Wa.
Post by: Todd j on February 03, 2021, 10:31:16 PM
I donít know that I ever experienced blush.   My work temp is 60 degrees this time of year.   I just ordered another 6 gallons of resin.   That will be 36 gallons.  Iím hoping that will do it.  I have wasted some,  but not gallons. 
Title: Re: 30' GA in Elma Wa.
Post by: json on February 04, 2021, 06:48:24 AM
I have had work blush during the winter-time or cold humid nights with eBond. Wipes off with water easily, not a problem really... Especially if you are using something like peel ply. 3 gallons is well under $200 shipped, do some science!
Title: Re: 30' GA in Elma Wa.
Post by: Brian.Dixon on February 04, 2021, 07:01:24 AM

Blush is often pretty light, hard to detect.  Best way to look for it is to walk the full length of the boat, dragging your hand on the hull the whole way ... blush will feel a little waxy on your hand.  Best to clean it off (ammonia water) before sanding.
Title: Re: 30' GA in Elma Wa.
Post by: ghelland on February 09, 2021, 07:33:57 PM
I have never seen blush but after scrubbing with a 3M pad and water the surface feels cleaner.  I do it every time just to be sure I get the best bond possible.  I know this is adding time to the build but I think we are all betting that we have great boats and will take them anywhere.

Rbob, thanks for the advice on the Epoxy cost.
Title: Re: 30' GA in Elma Wa.
Post by: rhenryinoregon on February 14, 2021, 10:05:51 AM
Iíve used a lot of epoxies - generally in smaller amounts though - and so far Iím very pleased with the eBond. I havenít mixed formulas at all and would hesitate also without talking to their experts or giving it a good trial.
Title: Re: 30' GA in Elma Wa.
Post by: ghelland on February 24, 2021, 11:12:59 PM
I am getting very close to applying my spray rails ect.  I am concerned about having un-glassed wood in the water.   At some point I am sure I will beach my boat.   Has anyone glassed over UHMW?  I am thinking that if I poke a hole in the glass I won't have anything to rot.
Title: Re: 30' GA in Elma Wa.
Post by: Djeffrey on February 25, 2021, 08:38:46 AM
I used strips of marine plywood for my spray rails and then glassed over them with 4 inch tape. This created a lot of fairing to smooth out the tape, bit it was worth it.
Title: Re: 30' GA in Elma Wa.
Post by: Rbob on February 25, 2021, 08:52:54 AM
I am getting very close to applying my spray rails ect.  I am concerned about having un-glassed wood in the water.   At some point I am sure I will beach my boat.   Has anyone glassed over UHMW?  I am thinking that if I poke a hole in the glass I won't have anything to rot.

My non-professional opinion is that you would not glass over UHMW.  You can look up bonding UHMW, flame treatment, G-flex. If I went that route I would add UHMW on top of a wooden strake.  You would be able to screw the UHMW into the strakes without penetrating the hull.
Title: Re: 30' GA in Elma Wa.
Post by: Todd j on February 25, 2021, 10:07:43 AM
When it comes to the spray rails there was lengthy discussion in my build thread including alternate lofting from Brian with CAD drawings.  Donít know if these numbers are in the new plans.  It also explains Brianís suggestion on glassing them to the hull.
Title: Re: 30' GA in Elma Wa.
Post by: rhenryinoregon on February 25, 2021, 01:56:21 PM
I used a UHMW shoe on a drift boat years ago. It expands and contracts a lot, which worked screws loose and I ended up with a lot of dry rot. I did many things wrong with that boat though, so maybe it was me. I would want to be sure the screw holes were well potted with epoxy. Or, cut narrow slots for the screw mounts so the UHMW can expand and contact laterally without pushing the screws around. On my drift boat I loved how slippery and tough the UHMW was, but keeping the screws in place was a losing battle for me.
Title: Re: 30' GA in Elma Wa.
Post by: Rbob on February 25, 2021, 02:43:44 PM
Rhenry,

Just curious if the UHMW shoe on your driftboat was attached by screws only?

I would not use UHMW if that was the case.  You have some time to make a couple samples to see how it sticks with some g-flex, / flame treated one with screws on 8" centers or so and one with just screws and the end.

I would use G- flex on whatever shoe you choose.

G-flex stuff:
https://www.westsystem.com/specialty-epoxies/gflex-epoxy-adhesion-data/ (https://www.westsystem.com/specialty-epoxies/gflex-epoxy-adhesion-data/)

And Reltek Adhesive for UHMW:

http://www.reltekllc.com/adhesivesforuhmw.aspx (http://www.reltekllc.com/adhesivesforuhmw.aspx)
Title: Re: 30' GA in Elma Wa.
Post by: Brian.Dixon on February 26, 2021, 04:13:13 PM

I'm curious how adhesives would hold up on a large gluing surface such as the entire bottom of a boat .... say, a stitch-n-glue jet sled or driftboat ... not just strips on skegs?

Title: Re: 30' GA in Elma Wa.
Post by: ghelland on February 26, 2021, 09:39:21 PM
I would say that it would work well.  That would be a lot of square inches and not much force.
Title: Re: 30' GA in Elma Wa.
Post by: Brian.Dixon on February 27, 2021, 09:51:51 AM
I would say that it would work well.  That would be a lot of square inches and not much force.

Since the ratio of square inches of adhesive to square inches of UHMW stays the same no matter how large the piece is that you're gluing on, I'd agree.  But then my wee little brain thinks about how near the centerline of the plastic, you might see a tiny bit of movement ... per inch .. which adds up to a lot more expansion near the outer edges ... perhaps enough to delam the plastic from the adhesive near outer edges?  Perhaps, like all good things in life, a complementary solution may address all of the above.  If there were screws or slotted rail or some type of mechanically-limiting solution near the outer edges, the combination of gluing the whole bottom on PLUS the outer-edge fasteners (or rails or ???) might be the magic ticket for large jobs.  I plan on designing a wood/glass/epoxy jet sled, when time permits, and it would be nice to know how best to protect the boat from river boulders and tough beachings...

Title: Re: 30' GA in Elma Wa.
Post by: Grady300 on February 28, 2021, 07:56:27 AM
I am getting very close to applying my spray rails ect.  I am concerned about having un-glassed wood in the water.   At some point I am sure I will beach my boat.   Has anyone glassed over UHMW?  I am thinking that if I poke a hole in the glass I won't have anything to rot.
Aux. spray rails I went with mahogany just glued and screwed. let dry 48 hours removed all screws and drilled the holes out a bit and filled with peanut butter so there should be no water should enter the hull. Put several coats of epoxy on them then bottom paint primer with bottom paint over that. No glass whatsoever on the aux. rails I think the aux rails will out live me :) main spray rails are mahogany pre-glassed before install on the boat. Just my 2 cents
P.S.Edit...I should mention my pre-glassed main spray rails are not full length of the boat. I chose to go with the shorter version Brian shows it is so much easier. Mine are only about 12 feet long+- 
Title: Re: 30' GA in Elma Wa.
Post by: ghelland on February 28, 2021, 04:25:13 PM
Thanks for the input.  I am hunting down some IPE to do the job.  If it only lasts 40 years I guess I won't care by then. 
Title: Re: 30' GA in Elma Wa.
Post by: rhenryinoregon on March 01, 2021, 01:39:29 PM
Gary,

Just curious if the UHMW shoe on your driftboat was attached by screws only?

I would not use UHMW if that was the case.  You have some time to make a couple samples to see how it sticks with some g-flex, / flame treated one with screws on 8" centers or so and one with just screws and the end.

I would use G- flex on whatever shoe you choose.

G-flex stuff:
https://www.westsystem.com/specialty-epoxies/gflex-epoxy-adhesion-data/ (https://www.westsystem.com/specialty-epoxies/gflex-epoxy-adhesion-data/)

And Reltek Adhesive for UHMW:

http://www.reltekllc.com/adhesivesforuhmw.aspx (http://www.reltekllc.com/adhesivesforuhmw.aspx)

Yes, it was just screws - bronze I believe. There were a lot of them and they were counter sunk flush. It was worst on the sides and the dry rot hit the edges of the bottom and into the chine frame. There may be adhesives that stick to UHMW but not any Iíve tested. No hook. Again, Iím hardly an expert but that was my experience.
Title: Re: 30' GA in Elma Wa.
Post by: Todd j on March 01, 2021, 05:21:47 PM
I am getting very close to applying my spray rails ect.  I am concerned about having un-glassed wood in the water.   At some point I am sure I will beach my boat.   Has anyone glassed over UHMW?  I am thinking that if I poke a hole in the glass I won't have anything to rot.
Aux. spray rails I went with mahogany just glued and screwed. let dry 48 hours removed all screws and drilled the holes out a bit and filled with peanut butter so there should be no water should enter the hull. Put several coats of epoxy on them then bottom paint primer with bottom paint over that. No glass whatsoever on the aux. rails I think the aux rails will out live me :) main spray rails are mahogany pre-glassed before install on the boat. Just my 2 cents :)

Please do let us know how preglassing the spray rails goes for you.  I tried to preglass and failed, gave up, and went a different route.  For me I think was a bit of a blessing.  FWIW  The spray rails are a rascal!  I did one side unassisted, it was harder than the unassisted flip.  The scarf joints busted during install.  I tried to do them multiple times and said screw it.  I just scarfed them on the boat and they look great.  I don't know how readily the preglassed wood will bend to the boat.  Its asking a lot of it for the forward third of the hull.  I used 2 layers of 6 oz. glass cloth at 45 degrees to the edge  per Brian's suggestion.  Super easy and super strong.  I also used no mechanical fasteners on the forward end as the manual calls out.  Do look ahead at how far the spray rails go forward as I have seen instances where they do run too far forward and cause trailering or other unforeseen complications.  I held mine back just a smidge more from the stem to avoid this and I think they look just fine.

my .02 FWIW
Title: Re: 30' GA in Elma Wa.
Post by: Brian.Dixon on March 02, 2021, 06:47:27 AM

Yup ... those spray rails can be challenging to install ... almost impossible by yourself.  You really need to draw a line on the boat where they go, use washers and through-bolts, have someone inside the boat to feed the bolts through holes, someone outside the boat to put on washers and nuts and tighten, and a 3rd person carrying the long end of the rails and lifting up/down to keep the spot being through-bolted at the moment right on the line.

Glassing ahead of time puts fiberglass in tension when bending onto the boat ... tough cookies.  If you must, then just glass scarf joints.  Try NOT to have any scarf joints in the front third of the hull where the hard bends are.

The long screw that's recommended at the bow goes into the stem (or add a doubler inside if the rails don't go all the way to the stem).  If you bang up the rails and don't get them repaired right away, they can absorb water and create tremendous 'straightening' force on those rails (the bent shape on the boat is not their original shape).  This risks the forward end breaking the epoxy and popping off the boat.  Saw it happen once.  The screw at the bow is the SINGLE fastener that I call out for the build, and this is why... mechanical back-up for the aforementioned scenario.  The rail that I saw pop off was 2 layers of mahogany ... it's possible that if you are layering plywood to build up the rails, that this issue goes away.  Plywood, having alternate directions of fiber in the plies, has only half the wood with fore/aft fibers that would 'want to straighten' if absorbing water AND the glue layers between plies will slow most water absorption deeper into the wood. Just a few thoughts ...



Title: Re: 30' GA in Elma Wa.
Post by: Todd j on March 02, 2021, 07:46:27 AM
I used nice meaty fillets top and bottom too
Title: Re: 30' GA in Elma Wa.
Post by: Brian.Dixon on March 03, 2021, 07:11:50 AM
I used nice meaty fillets top and bottom too


... Always a great idea.  Nice big fillets direct water outward rather than allowing it to try to force in between the hull and rail ... AND provides lots of extra strength.