Author Topic: Knife valves for scuppers?  (Read 3032 times)

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Howie

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Knife valves for scuppers?
« on: February 10, 2025, 09:53:25 AM »
Been awful quiet around here...thought I would throw this out there for thoughts.

I am planning on sloping my cockpit deck as suggested here. It seems like the best of both worlds on scuppers would be to have some small scuppers that you can't forget to open (with flapper valves) to deal with incidental water and rain when docked but also have something bigger available if there is ever a large wave event. I know having 3" or so scuppers with pipe plugs could work but I am thinking about trying to use some RV waste knife valves. I think they would be easier/quicker to open if something crazy were to happen. Not sure if it would be worth the extra work for something that would hopefully be a rare event.

https://pentairaes.com/knife-gate-valves-112-to-8.html?srsltid=AfmBOooSFzM4QOT3_FSsBRVn3wf9LwOFgdI8GIxO5DoQyAHVU7G_IfLHCe4

Brian.Dixon

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Re: Knife valves for scuppers?
« Reply #1 on: February 10, 2025, 03:50:38 PM »

Looks like those would work ... are the measurements the product overall, or the diameter of the hole?  I suspect it's the longest product dimension, but then they should state the hole diameters, yes? I wonder if there are any big rectangular ones available somewhere?

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Howie

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Re: Knife valves for scuppers?
« Reply #2 on: February 10, 2025, 04:10:26 PM »
I don't think I have seen rectangular one outside of big industrial ones...that would be nice though. The size is the pvc/abs pipe diameter. Seems like a couple of 3" ones would work though 4" might be possible. They even have some with a cable attached so you could route the handle wherever you wanted it.

Todd j

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Re: Knife valves for scuppers?
« Reply #3 on: February 11, 2025, 03:20:36 PM »
I used the standard scupper with flapper.   My hull is 4" deeper than design, so my deck is 4" further from the water.  unwanted water is directed to the scuppers from 4 places at the aft end of the boat.  They definitely let in tons of water while backing into swell.  I have found scuppers to be a pain in the butt.  I have them plugged at the cockpit with foam that is easily pushed away to let water out.  If I had it to do again, my boat and I would be happier scupper less.  The only time I was glad I had them was my first offshore trip when they flooded my boat.  a bit of forward momentum and I was able to clear the deck.  It took several minutes for the bilge pumps to empty the fish well and the water below deck.  Having said that, I don't really think this design works all that great with the scuppers.  Brian has tips for getting them to work, but as designed, equipped as my boat is, they might as well be under water. 
  Use 2 bilge pumps and save yourself a bit of aggravation.  My .02 FWIW

Brian.Dixon

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Re: Knife valves for scuppers?
« Reply #4 on: February 11, 2025, 03:52:30 PM »
For boats over 20' LOA, many professional organizations recommend scuppers for offshore use, which means without them, you should limit operation to within 20 miles ('inshore') of shore (National Marine Manufacturer's Association (NMMA), American Boat and Yacht Council (ABYC), United States Coast Guard (USCG) etc).

THAT said, note that the guidelines and standards are in conflict with each other and can even be unreasonable, e.g. scuppers so high that the water cannot get out in Great Alaskan class boats (commercially built OR homebuilt).  That's why the Great Alaskan manuals recommend close-able scuppers as a best compromise, to be opened when necessary and otherwise kept closed.   If you can come up with scuppers that are large, and that can be closed except when needed (likely only at the dock when left unattended), then put them in.  That's better than taking a monster wave and hoping you can bail enough water, fast enough, to make any difference.  The manuals also recommend proper high-volume bailing buckets etc.  In addition to that, the manuals also recommend at least one high-volume bilge pump (two is one, one is none) ... And note that bilge pumps are NOT for offshore emergencies - they are for helping to get rid of rain and spray water in the boat.  Make sense?  This is why you also must have a below-decks bulkhead at the aft end of the pilot house and it should have a pluggable limber at the bottom ... keep the plug installed, as with closing scuppers, when operating offshore.  I also recommend a sloped cockpit deck to aid draining ('self-bailing') at the dock, and a high enough sill between the cockpit and inside the pilot house. Some builders have put in commercially made sealing doors in the aft house bulkhead.  They're expensive, but good insurance.  Finally, good seamanship includes knowing your and your boat's limitations and requires safe operation - there is no boat bigger or meaner than the ocean. 

« Last Edit: February 11, 2025, 03:57:03 PM by Brian.Dixon »
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Dan Boccia

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Re: Knife valves for scuppers?
« Reply #5 on: February 11, 2025, 04:35:53 PM »
My scuppers are minimal, only 2" diameter, so in an offshore swamping situation will probably take too long to be of real safety value. That said, when I'm out in the boat, the ability to take my custom-modified plugs out, scrub the deck, and have it all drain out the scuppers, is invaluable. I am unable to imagine a situation where I'd rather not have them. I'm actually planning to add another set of scuppers to the boat to better my offshore situation. When I'm running in rough seas, I always have the plugs out, just in case.

The knife valve is intriguing, but would take some careful and unusual customization to fit.

Todd j

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Re: Knife valves for scuppers?
« Reply #6 on: February 11, 2025, 06:15:23 PM »
As usual, Brian has the info!!  Good point on the bilge pumps.  I cannot imagine being In Waves that could flood my boat.  Super scary to think about.  I?m never surprised by the differing set ups and uses for these boats.  I?ll just keep my scuppers plugged until I need them.  I had high hopes that they would drain the deck while in the slip if it rained a lot  while I was away, keeping the bilge pumps from having to work. 
  I recently had a problem with my bilge pumps.  I bought a hand pump bilge pump as another spare.  I never considered needing one with redundancy built in.  Something else to think about

Djeffrey

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Re: Knife valves for scuppers?
« Reply #7 on: February 11, 2025, 06:27:23 PM »
I love the idea. Can?t wait to see it implemented

Howie

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Re: Knife valves for scuppers?
« Reply #8 on: February 11, 2025, 06:32:27 PM »
I had high hopes that they would drain the deck while in the slip if it rained a lot  while I was away

Todd, can you say a bit more about why they don't drain the deck while at a slip? Trying to better understand your issue.

Todd j

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Re: Knife valves for scuppers?
« Reply #9 on: February 11, 2025, 07:54:21 PM »
I guess I just gave up on the notion.  The deck now can drain to the bilge albeit slowly.  The cockpit deck has a large insulated fish box, and two small wet storage boxes for lines and fenders.  Rain will eventually fill the bilge and activate the pumps.  It might be able to self bail at the dock if the deck was constructed without the storage built in. I guess it could be possible that with enough water in the bilge to squat the aft end of the boat enough to put the scuppers at the waterline it may not sink no matter how much water poured onto the deck.  I?m really not sure.  Keep in mind my scuppers ar at least 4? further from the water than most. 
   It is my opinion and maybe mine alone that, at deck level, the outlets are too close to the waterline.  I thought I would have better results due to my added deck height.  It?s a bit of a disappointment,  but I still totally love the boat and the design. 
   Don?t know if that answered your question or not?

Howie

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Re: Knife valves for scuppers?
« Reply #10 on: February 11, 2025, 08:18:38 PM »
Thanks Todd-
That all makes sense. I was planning on some under deck storage as well so you have given me some things to think about.

Dan Boccia

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Re: Knife valves for scuppers?
« Reply #11 on: February 12, 2025, 01:48:34 AM »
So Todd, my scuppers are about 5" above waterline, and they work nicely to drain the back deck.
Yes, they let in water in many situations while out operating/using the boat, but not while at rest at anchor/dock.
If your deck is higher than most, yours must be more than 5" from waterline?

So maybe height above waterline is not the issue, the issue is that your deck is not "water-tight" due to the below-deck storage doors not being well-sealed. I failed to figure out a simple solution to building below-deck lids that were convenient to use, watertight, and reasonable (to me) to build, so opted for a sealed deck and forfeiting the below-deck storage. If that is the case then I see your point - the scuppers under most operational scenarios just let water onto the deck that goes through the below-deck storage doors, and floods the bilge. That said, for operating offshore, I would still want adequate scuppers for a bad-sea scenario. Another "priorities" decision for owners to make!

Brian.Dixon

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Re: Knife valves for scuppers?
« Reply #12 on: February 12, 2025, 08:04:27 AM »

As a reference, Bay Weld Boats only puts in two 3" scuppers in boats that are of similar size to the GA and operate in the same waters.  I like Chuck's rectangular scuppers for more flow (but hard to close).  Chuck's epic 1800-mile open-ocean trip from San Diego to Puerto Vallarta in Mexico proved the point well when he went through some extremely rough conditions on the way ... water going OVER the top of his Kodiak...
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Todd j

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Re: Knife valves for scuppers?
« Reply #13 on: February 12, 2025, 12:08:54 PM »
I have the exact same scupper as Chuck for discussion sake. I?ll try to post a pic with a measuring tape too for reference

Dan Boccia

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Re: Knife valves for scuppers?
« Reply #14 on: February 12, 2025, 02:22:13 PM »
Here is a 29 ft Bay Weld boat shown on their current website. Two quite large, either 3 or 4" scuppers on EACH side for a total of 4. Other of their boats have large oval scuppers. So my experience with Bay Weld boats is very different than Brian's - they tend to take scuppers very seriously in fact. Additionally, their floor hatches have a seal so they do a decent job of keeping water out of the bilge - far easier to do in aluminum than it is with plywood. But then again this boat only manages 1 nmpg at cruise, so we're close to 3x the mileage! But man, these are seriously well-designed and well-built boats that can operate year-round. Good place to pick up design ideas.

I, too, have had water go over the cabin and into the back deck on a day with 30+ knot winds and a 5 ft storm sea in a concentrated channel for about 20-30 minutes. It wasn't much water, but enough to make me glad I had the scuppers for sure.
« Last Edit: February 12, 2025, 02:25:40 PM by Dan Boccia »