Author Topic: LiFePO4 Marine battery  (Read 3714 times)

0 Members and 1 Guest are viewing this topic.

Rbob

  • Captain
  • **
  • Posts: 1170
    • View Profile
LiFePO4 Marine battery
« on: May 27, 2021, 12:20:46 AM »
In researching this type of battery, finding one that is designed as a starting battery is challenging to say the least.  I came across a newly released battery that looks amazing, it is dual purpose.  I discovered this battery on DIY Solor Forum.

https://diysolarforum.com/threads/dual-12v-110ah-lifepo4-marine-battery-engerine-starting-storage.22061/

http://www.lileadbattery.com/

https://www.amazon.com/gp/product/B093SZSNRC/ref=ppx_yo_dt_b_asin_title_o00_s00?ie=UTF8&psc=1

I purchased 2 of them (nice discount) , one for the house battery and one for starting. 

If you are in the market I highly suggest looking into this battery.




json

  • Commander
  • *
  • Posts: 651
    • View Profile
    • Email
Re: LiFePO4 Marine battery
« Reply #1 on: May 28, 2021, 08:51:51 AM »
Interesting. I have been doing a lot of research here too, and I think I am going to probably not have my full sized house bank on launch. I also thought about doing a capacitor for the starter but then thought better of it and am now thinking just a regular sized agm or flooded battery for the starter. They are cheap(er) and then I can not have the high amperage requirements for my house bank, which is nice because it keeps a lot of options around that were otherwise going to get axed.

I read https://marinehowto.com/lifepo4-batteries-on-boats/ , while noting that he has a vested interest in the batteries he is recommending, he makes interesting points about the internal build quality on a lifepo4 or other lithium battery. I imagine that lilead batteries probably don't have some of the issues he points out with build quality, as they are typically things that limit charge or discharge. I think at this point I am going to go with a pair of kilovault hlx1800s, which are 150 amps each, and have a max charge and max discharge of 1C, so with a pair of them I would have a 300 amp capacity in or out.

Rbob

  • Captain
  • **
  • Posts: 1170
    • View Profile
Re: LiFePO4 Marine battery
« Reply #2 on: May 28, 2021, 12:42:47 PM »
That is a huge battery, two of them would have an amazing amount of reserve and probably a great option for a bow thruster or big windlass/anchor puller.

One thing I noticed is Kilovault has a higher discharge rate at 150 amp continuous vs LiLead's 100 amp continuous, although Kilovault has a peak discharge current of 500amps  >3 secs where LiLead has 300A surge current for 60 seconds.

There is a lot of factors to think about when choosing these batteries for sure.

I am not sure how to go about charging 2 house batteries but I am sure there are ways.

The main reason I choose LiLead was its dual purpose start/deep cycle, and the price point at $1k for 2 batteries I could not pass it up.

The Windlass and Pot Puller will draw a fair amount of power but the engine will be running while using either of these.  I plan on a 12v 45-50 Liter portable refrigerator, I just looked up an ICECO VL45 and  a review stated 5 days on a 60amp lithium!  I dont see an issue running 110amp Lithium as a house battery.


json

  • Commander
  • *
  • Posts: 651
    • View Profile
    • Email
Re: LiFePO4 Marine battery
« Reply #3 on: May 28, 2021, 01:06:56 PM »
Wow, $1k for 220Ah lifepo4? Maybe I should reconsider.. haha... My big power draws are going to be my anchor puller (ez rebel 5, 1500w), and the real big one will be the bait tank pump, which draws 96w, but will be on basically any time I have bait, so if I am overnighting at Catalina I will need capacity to run that and anything else all night, which just that pump alone could pull 64 amps in 8 hours. 220Ah could certainly cut it though, how did you get that price?

Rbob

  • Captain
  • **
  • Posts: 1170
    • View Profile
Re: LiFePO4 Marine battery
« Reply #4 on: May 29, 2021, 08:07:41 AM »
Here is the link, same as above.  I contacted Lilead thru pm.

https://diysolarforum.com/threads/dual-12v-110ah-lifepo4-marine-battery-engerine-starting-storage.22061/

BTW, that is a great forum with tons of info anything lithium and more.  its seems the BMS is a key factor in the performance of these batteries which is why different batteries have different discharge rates etc.

I have seen lots of videos by Will Prowse and is a great source of information also, he is a Moderator on DIYSolarForum.

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=buNxclZixuU

https://diysolarforum.com/threads/recommended-charge-profile-for-diy-lifepo4-batteries-sticky-post.5101/


Rbob

  • Captain
  • **
  • Posts: 1170
    • View Profile
Re: LiFePO4 Marine battery
« Reply #5 on: May 29, 2021, 08:00:13 PM »
I ordered on the 26th, received 2 batteries today! Very excited, did I tell you these batteries come with a 10 Year Warranty?

Charging them up and cant wait to test them out.  Funny, a box with 2 batteries is less than 50lbs. 



« Last Edit: May 29, 2021, 08:03:43 PM by Rbob »

Dan Boccia

  • Lieutenant
  • ****
  • Posts: 244
    • View Profile
    • Email
Re: LiFePO4 Marine battery
« Reply #6 on: May 30, 2021, 01:18:56 PM »
Interesting, I've been studying this on and off for a couple years now, good to see this discussion!

The Lilied website gives me pause as zero technical information is available.

The info on the DIY forum and printed on the battery claims 800 amps maximum current, but neither claim comes with a temperature rating for that scenario, so it's impossible to tell if the amps are adequate for cranking the engine. My Suzuki 250 requires 800A marine cranking amps (32F) or 1000 cold cranking amps (0F). A group size 48 battery is quite small, so I have serious doubts about the claims here.

My main concern as a start battery is how it shuts itself down once charging is done - does it just disconnect the load? If so, it will destroy the alternator, which cannot withstand a sudden disconnect of current and associated instantaneous spike in back-voltage. Perhaps if you install an alternator protector, such as sold by Sterling? But remember those are intended for stand-alone alternators rather than outboard alternators so I'm not at all sure it's appropriate for an outboard.

As a house battery it seems like it may work fine. I like that it has posts on each corner. However, up against the Kilovault batteries from AltE store, without a lot more information, these give me way more questions than answers, and the Kilovault batteries appear to have better charge/discharge specs, although I think most of that is from the fact that the Lilead battery is smaller than the smallest Kilovault battery, which could mean the Lilead's smaller size is it's greatest potential advantage here.

Personally, I would not run a lithium start battery on an outboard boat - I don't think the BMS is ready to protect the outboard alternator adequately. As a house battery, with a battery to battery charger from an AGM start battery, is where the sweet spot is. The other issue with lithium as a house battery is that they really don't want to see a constant trickle charge, as from a solar panel or small charger as pictured (the Noko). They want a bulk charge, a short absorption charge, then nothing. I've been looking into it for my boat and given that I'd have to change all 3 of my solar charge controllers plus add some sort of control to shut them down when the battery was fully charged, it's just too much $$ and time to save the 25 or so pounds.

I think Victron and Kilovault are the best options here, with Victron offering a more or less complete solution for marine applications, but again, not geared toward outboard boats, so there are issues to resolve here. I think for outboard boats, the only way to go is with the battery to battery charger, and again, leave a "standard" lead acid battery (or AGM) as the start battery to prevent any problems with the outboard.

« Last Edit: May 30, 2021, 05:11:41 PM by Dan Boccia »

Rbob

  • Captain
  • **
  • Posts: 1170
    • View Profile
Re: LiFePO4 Marine battery
« Reply #7 on: May 30, 2021, 07:59:55 PM »
Not sure if batteries shut off after charge, I know that you cannot disconnect from alternator while running so if limits were exceeded there could be a potential problem like a ruined alternator.  I was and still am concerned about a Lifepo4 being a start battery so I really hope this works out.

The battery info card shows standard charging at 22amps and rapid charge at 100amps, the 10amp charger is all I have right now so I used it, probably not optimal so maybe I should look into a 25amp charger for home use.

I ended up going with Renogy b2b charger, it looks easier to hook up and better specs than what I looked up prior.

https://www.renogy.com/dcc30s-12v-30a-dual-input-dc-dc-on-board-battery-charger-with-mppt/

If the Lifepo4 does not work for a starting battery I will go with a lead acid / agm type.

I could not find a post of someone else using a Lifepo4 as a start battery for outboard, it would have ben nice to hear about it before I committed but I am taking a chance..

I need to do some research about protecting the alternator if the Lifepo4 disconnects.  on edit here is some info:

https://livsailing.com/2019/11/04/protecting-your-alternator-when-switching-to-lithium/

Looks like Sterling makes an alternator protection device:

https://www.sterling-power-usa.com/SterlingPower12voltalternatorprotectiondevice.aspx




« Last Edit: May 30, 2021, 08:09:50 PM by Rbob »

Dan Boccia

  • Lieutenant
  • ****
  • Posts: 244
    • View Profile
    • Email
Re: LiFePO4 Marine battery
« Reply #8 on: May 30, 2021, 09:46:02 PM »
The other issue with lithium that you can see on the battery spec sheet in the last post, is that for charging, the battery must be above 32F. KiloVault makes a cold weather battery with a built-in heater that does not allow any charging until the battery has heated up to 32F.

I think you are taking a big risk "trying" the lithium battery on your outboard. How much is it going to cost to replace a voltage regulator/alternator on your outboard if the experiment fails? And I think failure is likely from what I've heard. Could also start a fire on your boat. Hard to recommend this experiment when you should be able to contact the company and ask the question about whether or not this is a good fit for an outboard and how they protect from overcharge.

Good luck!

Rbob

  • Captain
  • **
  • Posts: 1170
    • View Profile
Re: LiFePO4 Marine battery
« Reply #9 on: May 30, 2021, 10:21:22 PM »
Big risk agreed,  I will be having a discussion with Renogy about the alternator protection recommendations etc.  I was aware of Kilovaults built in heater which is amazing.  I see what you mean about the charging temp being 32F that is a problem for winter temps. 

Searching  for answers tonight, Will Prowse has done a review on the Renogy and talks about low temp. Its late and my brain is turning to mush.  I will be gone  shrimping until next Saturday so wont have time look into this further.

great discussion!

https://diysolarforum.com/threads/renogy-dc-dc-charger-w-mppt.1406/

I emailed Lilead last night and received a response this morning (impressed) and these and most/all lifepo4 say not to charge if below 32f but can discharge down to -20f.  So adding a 12v t-stat controlled heating pad or similar could be a work around.

 

 
« Last Edit: May 31, 2021, 08:19:39 AM by Rbob »

Rbob

  • Captain
  • **
  • Posts: 1170
    • View Profile
Re: LiFePO4 Marine battery
« Reply #10 on: May 31, 2021, 08:03:34 AM »
Quite a discussion going on over at diysolarforum and more data comparing to battleborn and another Lifepo4. 

https://diysolarforum.com/threads/dual-purpose-lifepo4-starting-and-deep-cycle-battery-in-stock-usa.23321/

Brian.Dixon

  • Administrator
  • Admiral
  • *****
  • Posts: 2656
    • View Profile
    • Glacier Boats of Alaska
Re: LiFePO4 Marine battery
« Reply #11 on: May 31, 2021, 09:26:51 AM »

Where is the company?  It's clear from their "Active your battery..." (should be Activate) and their emails etc that English is a second language for them ... are the batteries Chinese made?  Just curious ...

The Great Alaskan - Professional performance - Easy to build! - https://www.glacierboats.com  ><((((?> ... ><((((?> ... ><((((?> ... ><((((?>

Dan Boccia

  • Lieutenant
  • ****
  • Posts: 244
    • View Profile
    • Email
Re: LiFePO4 Marine battery
« Reply #12 on: May 31, 2021, 11:38:02 PM »
I just read two articles talking about boat manufacturers using lithium batteries right from the start on new builds. Both are still using AGM start batteries, for the reasons I've posted above (most importantly that most/all current BMS cut off charging current abruptly, which WILL fry the diodes in your alternator and thus the alternator is toast). They are also using battery to battery (or DC to DC) chargers to charge lithium house batteries.

This forum post really had my gears turning today thinking about lithium. If I was building new today, I'd have an AGM start battery charged by the alternator, and a lithium house battery charged primarily by a battery to battery charger and also by solar with charge controllers specifically suited for lithium batteries, and I'd engineer a way to shut the charge controllers down when the house battery reaches a certain voltage or amperage....or I'd install a manual switch and keep track of things enough to manually shut the solar panels down then the house battery was satisfied. Given the high current requirements of my anchor winch, I'd most likely go with the KiloVaults 125 AH version from Alt-E, which is a quality vendor I've used before in the solar business I'm involved in.

Rbob

  • Captain
  • **
  • Posts: 1170
    • View Profile
Re: LiFePO4 Marine battery
« Reply #13 on: June 01, 2021, 12:20:04 AM »
Dan,

Can you share the articles? What you say I agree with, I have a lot to learn. 

Lilead is made in China from what I can tell, Ray-tech International

http://www.lileadbattery.net/aboutus


Dan Boccia

  • Lieutenant
  • ****
  • Posts: 244
    • View Profile
    • Email
Re: LiFePO4 Marine battery
« Reply #14 on: June 01, 2021, 02:53:54 AM »
Here is one of the articles. It's short with little technical info but spells out exactly what their schematic design is about mid-way through. The other article is alluding me, I've read quite a bit lately, and the good news is that everything I read that seems technically sound leads to the exact same configuration for an outboard boat as described here. Perhaps something new has been developed that allows a lithium to serve as an outboard start battery, I just have yet to see it.

https://www.powerandmotoryacht.com/maintenance/switching-to-lithium-batteries-on-your-boat